The Dominance Theory and Cesar Millan...

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Postby TheRedQueen » September 8th, 2009, 5:41 pm

I'd post the article here, but there are lots of videos that are embedded and go along with the text. :|

http://www.askdryin.com/dominance.php?a ... alphamovie
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
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Postby ArtGypsy » September 8th, 2009, 6:58 pm

hmmmmmm good stuff..

I will freely admit, before joining this forum, and learning what I've learned, I really "liked' CM....


I never read his books and only watched his shows occasionally. I just knew I loved the idea that someone could take these 'aggressive' unlovable' dogs and 'save' them.
:|

I see now why this is all wrong. :nono:
“Hope has two beautiful daughters: their names are Anger and Courage.
Anger that things are the way they are.
Courage to make them the way they ought to be.”----Augustine
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Postby Fuego » September 15th, 2009, 5:48 am

Thank you!
A very good und easily understandable article. :clap:
Luckily here in Germany Yin's methods are more common than the old school methods but sadly old school still exists. The Clicker method and positive methods are very common but often used in a wrong way or misunderstood. But that's way better than the methods in the CM videos. I'm happy we don't have this CM show here as there are still too many people who don't know anything about dogs and are too lazy to go the longer way instead of using the short and easy way of punishment like those in that show. :cry:

Does Yin have a TV show too?
Greetings from Germany :)
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Postby TheRedQueen » September 15th, 2009, 8:51 am

Fuego wrote:Thank you!
A very good und easily understandable article. :clap:
Luckily here in Germany Yin's methods are more common than the old school methods but sadly old school still exists. The Clicker method and positive methods are very common but often used in a wrong way or misunderstood. But that's way better than the methods in the CM videos. I'm happy we don't have this CM show here as there are still too many people who don't know anything about dogs and are too lazy to go the longer way instead of using the short and easy way of punishment like those in that show. :cry:

Does Yin have a TV show too?


I wish we didn't have CM on TV over here. :rolleyes2: The only other trainer that has a popular show is Victoria Stillwell on "It's Me or the Dog"...she's a positive reinforcement trainer...so I'm glad to see that she's popular...but not nearly as well known as CM. :nono:
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
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Postby plebayo » September 15th, 2009, 9:26 pm

I think CM overuses the term dominance a lot. I don't feel like my dog walking ahead of me on a loose lead is my dog being dominant over me.

I still like the fact that he takes in dogs that would otherwise have taken a dirt nap. I guess I really don't care how he fixes the problem, I think it's amazing that a human aggressive dog, or even a dog aggressive dog is able to coexist with their own species. Dogs are not meant to hate each other all the time, I know they aren't meant to be buddies all the time either but I think it's really a sad life that a dog aggressive dog leads not being able to be a dog, and do dog things with other dogs.
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Postby furever_pit » September 16th, 2009, 8:32 pm

I agree that CM overuses the term "dominance". I feel like he labels everything a dominance issue.

Thank you for the link to the article. It was really interesting. My favorite was of the desensitization of the JRT. I'm going to have to look up Dr. Yin some more.
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Postby DemoDick » September 16th, 2009, 9:45 pm

Fuego wrote:Thank you!
A very good und easily understandable article. :clap:
Luckily here in Germany Yin's methods are more common than the old school methods but sadly old school still exists. The Clicker method and positive methods are very common but often used in a wrong way or misunderstood. But that's way better than the methods in the CM videos. I'm happy we don't have this CM show here as there are still too many people who don't know anything about dogs and are too lazy to go the longer way instead of using the short and easy way of punishment like those in that show. :cry:
Does Yin have a TV show too?


No. Using punishment appropriately is not lazy or quicker than reinforcement, and reinforcement done properly is not slower. You are wrong on both counts.

The fastest and most effective results utilize both when appropriate.

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Postby Fuego » September 20th, 2009, 11:32 am

DemoDick wrote:
Fuego wrote:Thank you!
A very good und easily understandable article. :clap:
Luckily here in Germany Yin's methods are more common than the old school methods but sadly old school still exists. The Clicker method and positive methods are very common but often used in a wrong way or misunderstood. But that's way better than the methods in the CM videos. I'm happy we don't have this CM show here as there are still too many people who don't know anything about dogs and are too lazy to go the longer way instead of using the short and easy way of punishment like those in that show. :cry:
Does Yin have a TV show too?


No. Using punishment appropriately is not lazy or quicker than reinforcement, and reinforcement done properly is not slower. You are wrong on both counts.

The fastest and most effective results utilize both when appropriate.

Demo Dick


I think you are right when a completely new behaviour should be learned. But I disagree if it's about changing an existing undesired behaviour.
I have the belief based on experience (not by doing I only use positive reinforcement) that force is faster in results but less constant and it only works as long as the owner or punishment tool is around. Example: dog stelas from table. One or two experiences with the electric shock or spray collar and the dog will not steal again. I'm sure the positive method would take longer. But I'm also sure the punishment is connected to that special situation let's say "don't steal meat from that table" and may not work if it's another table or another food.
Greetings from Germany :)
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Postby DemoDick » September 20th, 2009, 4:26 pm

Fuego wrote:I think you are right when a completely new behaviour should be learned. But I disagree if it's about changing an existing undesired behaviour.
I have the belief based on experience (not by doing I only use positive reinforcement) that force is faster in results but less constant and it only works as long as the owner or punishment tool is around. Example: dog stelas from table. One or two experiences with the electric shock or spray collar and the dog will not steal again. I'm sure the positive method would take longer. But I'm also sure the punishment is connected to that special situation let's say "don't steal meat from that table" and may not work if it's another table or another food.


I've heard traditional trainers make the exact same argument about using food as a reward, i.e. "You're bribing the dog and he won't work if there isn't a treat waiting for him." For many dogs, that is true, and that's where opponents of using food in training get the idea that it is somehow "wrong."

I think in both cases, it's a case of the trainer applying the method incorrectly. If the dog won't perform a task or respect a boundary without abundant training cues, regardless if they are indicators of impending punishment or reward, then more work needs to be done to teach the dog that he contols the outcome through his own actions.

I like and use both methods, depending on the overall situation.

Demo Dick
"My first priority will be to reinstate the assault weapons ban PERMANENTLY as soon as I take office...I intend to work with Congress on a national no carry law, 1 gun a month purchase limits, and bans on all semi-automatic guns."-Barack Obama
"When in doubt, whip it out."-Nuge
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