Faust needs Brat Class... maybe???

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Postby TheRedQueen » July 27th, 2009, 4:10 pm

amazincc wrote:Yup, I get that... so, when are you all showing up at my house???


Hmmm...find me a flyball tourney nearby. ;)
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
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Postby amazincc » July 27th, 2009, 4:12 pm

TheRedQueen wrote:He needs to have good experiences with lots of different people, places and things. Barring that, take him places...it's not enough to meet people at home. Take him places and play the LAT game...make him realize that people mean GOOD things happening. Go prepared with toys, treats, etc. Be ready to walk away from people approaching...(I often pretend that I forgot something...mutter to myself and turn around)...be ready to protect him from well-meaning adults and kids that rush up at him. YOU are the one that gives treats when people are around...it's probably too soon to expect him to take treats from strangers.


No puppy classes anywhere around me other than obedience... :|
And I do take him "places"... we go for walks every day. He will sit behind me and watch when Sepp gets approached/petted, but you can tell by his body language that he's not wanting to "go there"... lol
So far even kids have not attempted to engage w/him when I have asked them not to... today was the first time someone touched him against his will. Stupid woman. :nono:
I think we may have a "doggy daycare/puppy play-hour" not too far from me... I will find out exactly what that entails. Even though, his problem isn't w/other dogs... he is very appropriate when meeting them on our walks.
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Postby airwalk » July 27th, 2009, 4:20 pm

With our new pup..yep I said our new pup...I'm beginning him with the concept of a 100 people in a 100 days. Not taking him anywhere where there are lots of dogs, but places where there are lots of people. I carry a bag of little treats and my approach is for hiim to think of human hands as pez dispensers....all good!
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Postby TheRedQueen » July 27th, 2009, 4:22 pm

Take him different places, and click/treat for calm behavior around people...shopping centers, parks, etc.

Like I said, if he's too worried to take treats (Inara rarely takes treats from strangers)...just concentrate on c/t for good behavior. Play LAT from a distance that he's comfy with.

This also might be a fear period...in which case, you really do want to go easy on him.
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
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Postby amazincc » July 27th, 2009, 4:40 pm

He'll take treats from ONE particular vet tech (and me, of course), but that's it. My mail man often brings cookies for the dogs (greatest guy EVER! :) ), but I'll have to be the one who gives Faust his... other than that he won't eat it.

Erin... I don't understand what you mean by click/treat for calm behavior around people... :?
He's not fazed as long as he can observe from a distance and/or people don't try to approach/touch him. I don't force him to submit to petting by strangers, and we haven't had any issues at the vet - I'm in the room w/him while he's being handled (w/clicker and treats), and he also hasn't objected to being picked up by the vet or the techs.
I really think this lady today just went about the whole thing in the wrong-est way. :rolleyes2:

But - once he recovers from being neutered, and is 100% health-wise, we will definitely work on socialization a lot more.
Baby steps and patience... I know. lol
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Postby amazincc » July 27th, 2009, 4:56 pm

TheRedQueen wrote:
amazincc wrote:Yup, I get that... so, when are you all showing up at my house???


Hmmm...find me a flyball tourney nearby. ;)



http://nafadb.flyball.org/cgi-public/pu ... 9&REGION=9 :wave2: :dance:
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Postby TheRedQueen » July 27th, 2009, 6:03 pm

amazincc wrote:He'll take treats from ONE particular vet tech (and me, of course), but that's it. My mail man often brings cookies for the dogs (greatest guy EVER! :) ), but I'll have to be the one who gives Faust his... other than that he won't eat it.

Erin... I don't understand what you mean by click/treat for calm behavior around people... :?
He's not fazed as long as he can observe from a distance and/or people don't try to approach/touch him. I don't force him to submit to petting by strangers, and we haven't had any issues at the vet - I'm in the room w/him while he's being handled (w/clicker and treats), and he also hasn't objected to being picked up by the vet or the techs.
I really think this lady today just went about the whole thing in the wrong-est way. :rolleyes2:



Many people think that having strangers offer treats is the best way of going about working with a shy/anxious dog. I have found that this stresses most of these dogs out way too much. I find that clicking/treating for good behavior around/near strangers is a much better way to go. If the dog won't take the treat offered by a stranger, then you know you've passed their threshold of what they can handle. I prefer to build up to meeting new people.
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
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Postby TheRedQueen » July 27th, 2009, 6:08 pm

continuing this here, because the screen was acting up again... :nono:

Clicking for calm behavior around new people? Anything that says "relaxed" or "calm"...attention on you, loose lips and mouth, relaxed ears and tail, etc. If you're not seeing "relaxed", then you're too close!

For example...Inara is a great one to read fearful body language from. She barks, her hair comes up on her back, her body and legs stiffen up and she will often hide behind me (if on leash). She puts her mouth into a tight little "O" as she barks, and doesn't "smile". Her ears are up and high, her eyes are wide and watching the person(s). She also tends to "hunch" up...keeping her head low. Her nubby also is raised and stiff. She often bounces on her stiff legs as she barks her big "ROOO ROOO" bark.
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"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
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Postby ArtGypsy » July 27th, 2009, 6:31 pm

TheRedQueen wrote:I agree with Michelle too...



I would say that a class is your best bet...a good puppy class that works heavily on socialization, rather than obedience. Even if you have to drive to find a good class, I think it's worth your while. :dance: He needs to have good experiences with lots of different people, places and things. Barring that, take him places...it's not enough to meet people at home. Take him places and play the LAT game...make him realize that people mean GOOD things happening. Go prepared with toys, treats, etc. Be ready to walk away from people approaching...(I often pretend that I forgot something...mutter to myself and turn around)...be ready to protect him from well-meaning adults and kids that rush up at him. YOU are the one that gives treats when people are around...it's probably too soon to expect him to take treats from strangers.



I' m thinking this would be a good thing for me and Dar too.....tell me more about "look at that""....and when people approach us, I turn and walk him away? I need to know more. :D
“Hope has two beautiful daughters: their names are Anger and Courage.
Anger that things are the way they are.
Courage to make them the way they ought to be.”----Augustine
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Postby ArtGypsy » July 27th, 2009, 6:34 pm

And a thought about Dar.............when he's acting all shy and trying to get away from kids/people, (pulling away, trying to run, dart, etc.), I quickly tell them 'he's afraid of new people''''
I would NEVER tell these people in Utica that he "will /might bite"... :o

Holy cow.....I know for a fact THAT would spread like wildfire.""even jody says her dog will bite"">???

I can see it now...............(sigh).....
“Hope has two beautiful daughters: their names are Anger and Courage.
Anger that things are the way they are.
Courage to make them the way they ought to be.”----Augustine
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Postby amazincc » July 27th, 2009, 6:48 pm

Hmmm... I just thought of something. :idea:

I think Faust is afraid of feet/boots. Is that possible???
When he first came to live w/me he would always pee when I walked up to him, but never when I was sitting/kneeling down and approached or called him then. At the vet I pick him up and put him on the exam table... he's pretty much on eye level with whomever handles him after that. He "sees it coming", so to speak.
He also starts dancing when I put my shoes on now, because he knows it means we're going out... but when I first got him he tried to avoid walking past my pile of shoes next to the door at all costs. He shimmied under the coffee table in an effort to get to the front door. I thought that was very odd at the time, but it kind of makes sense, since he was kicked a lot at the other house.

Given his size... the first thing he sees when a "stranger" approaches are the shoes, so... :|

Do I sound crazy now??? lol
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Postby TheRedQueen » July 27th, 2009, 6:49 pm

I don't like to turn around and walk away...unless I HAVE to. (you know, when you see that woman coming all hunched over making kissy faces at your fear reactive dog who wants to bite that kiss right off her face...or that little toddler is headed straight at your dog who is looking terrified at the small human-thing rushing up at eye-level)

I do like to set up situations where the thing making the dog reactive ONLY goes away when the dog is calm...dog and handler out walking, person appears in distance...dog stays calm, person in distance walks away. See...that scary person went away, because you were calm. ;)

But the above is for dogs that are NOT really going to be completely rehabbed, only managed or need their behavior modified some.

For pups, I don't do this scenario so much. ;) I want them to think that people are terrific, but having people hand them treats is too much for some. Thus, the calm behavior gets treats while we're among people. I often tell folks..."sorry, no petting, she's working right now"...so we avoid the "my dog really wants to eat you" discussion.

I think there is a thread about LAT...let me *look* for it... :dance:
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Postby TheRedQueen » July 27th, 2009, 6:50 pm

amazincc wrote:Hmmm... I just thought of something. :idea:

I think Faust is afraid of feet/boots. Is that possible???
When he first came to live w/me he would always pee when I walked up to him, but never when I was sitting/kneeling down and approached or called him then. At the vet I pick him up and put him on the exam table... he's pretty much on eye level with whomever handles him after that. He "sees it coming", so to speak.
He also starts dancing when I put my shoes on now, because he knows it means we're going out... but when I first got him he tried to avoid walking past my pile of shoes next to the door at all costs. He shimmied under the coffee table in an effort to get to the front door. I thought that was very odd at the time, but it kind of makes sense, since he was kicked a lot at the other house.

Given his size... the first thing he sees when a "stranger" approaches are the shoes, so... :|

Do I sound crazy now??? lol


Could be that feet are an aversive for him now... :| Sure, why not. So work on desensitizing him to feet....work on a "touch" cue, and have him touch feet/shoes for c/t.

Score is scared of baby gates, since one fell on him when he was a wee pup. It's handy in a way, since he doesn't mess with them now...but we work on touching it with his nose so he's not so jumpy around them.
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
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Postby amazincc » July 27th, 2009, 6:50 pm

ArtGypsy wrote:And a thought about Dar.............when he's acting all shy and trying to get away from kids/people, (pulling away, trying to run, dart, etc.), I quickly tell them 'he's afraid of new people''''
I would NEVER tell these people in Utica that he "will /might bite"... :o

Holy cow.....I know for a fact THAT would spread like wildfire.""even jody says her dog will bite"">???

I can see it now...............(sigh).....


Yep, I think the same thing would happen in my neighborhood. You gotta walk a fine line when it comes to other peoples perceptions. :neutral:
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Postby TheRedQueen » July 27th, 2009, 6:53 pm

amazincc wrote:
ArtGypsy wrote:And a thought about Dar.............when he's acting all shy and trying to get away from kids/people, (pulling away, trying to run, dart, etc.), I quickly tell them 'he's afraid of new people''''
I would NEVER tell these people in Utica that he "will /might bite"... :o

Holy cow.....I know for a fact THAT would spread like wildfire.""even jody says her dog will bite"">???

I can see it now...............(sigh).....


Yep, I think the same thing would happen in my neighborhood. You gotta walk a fine line when it comes to other peoples perceptions. :neutral:


Which is why, if you can...avoid putting them in situations that are past their thresholds. If they're that scared that they're trying to pull away, it's too much for them (which is why trying to get them to take treats is that much worse for dogs like this). Try and avoid getting them to the point of reacting...so you can c/t some good behaviors. :dance:
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
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Postby amazincc » July 27th, 2009, 7:06 pm

TheRedQueen wrote:
Could be that feet are an aversive for him now... :| Sure, why not. So work on desensitizing him to feet....work on a "touch" cue, and have him touch feet/shoes for c/t.



Well, that makes me sad and hopeful all at the same time. :neutral:
I think once he realizes that good people are attached to the "bad feet" we might just get somewhere. :)

I also think it's going to take a good long while before he "gets it", but I have tons of patience for project dogs... people, not at all. :smileUp:
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Postby TheRedQueen » July 27th, 2009, 7:36 pm

amazincc wrote:
Well, that makes me sad and hopeful all at the same time. :neutral:
I think once he realizes that good people are attached to the "bad feet" we might just get somewhere. :)



Eh, don't worry about it...it's all past him now. :D I try not to get hung up on what happened, or "might have" happened. Who knows anyways...until the dogs can talk to us in language we truly "get", we won't know. Just stay positive, and move forward...baby steps they might be, but that's just fine. :hug3:
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
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Postby amazincc » July 27th, 2009, 7:44 pm

TheRedQueen wrote:
Eh, don't worry about it...it's all past him now. :D I try not to get hung up on what happened, or "might have" happened. Who knows anyways...until the dogs can talk to us in language we truly "get", we won't know. Just stay positive, and move forward...baby steps they might be, but that's just fine. :hug3:


Well, you know me... I like to get in my own way more often than not. :rolleyes2: :oops:

*Is off to practice "touching" shoes w/Faust* :)
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Postby mnp13 » July 27th, 2009, 9:35 pm

Maybe put his dinner in some old shoes or put a treat in each shoe so he has to sniff around them and touch them?
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Postby babyreba » July 27th, 2009, 10:33 pm

hey long time, no see. been having issues remembering my password for this board, i finally got around to having an email sent to me so i could reset it.

i agree with erin about being adamant about keeping people's hands off the pup till you and the pup are are prepared. i'm living through fearful/underconfident puppy problems with button, and that's the advice i have gotten and continue to live by. i have to remind myself constantly that it's my job to protect my pup from people's well-meaning but stupid actions, no matter what. so even if i seem unfriendly or even mean, it's what has to be done sometimes.

you can still socialize the dog, but you really need to structure the socialization so every interaction is perceived as nonthreatening and positive. we're pretty hardline about how we want people to deal with him these days, so we tell people before they even come into the house what we want from them: do not touch him, do not look at him, do not touch him. pretend he doesn't exist.

even when he's sniffing around and soliciting attention, i don't want them to touch him or talk to him till i give the nod. usually, i wait till people have been in the house for about 15 minutes or so, because by then all of the adrenaline and excitement has worn off, and he's off to entertaining himself with a toy or whatever, and he's pretty much "over" the people. this approach has had a huge impact on his perception of visitors to the house. he's still not perfect, and if he startles he'll skitter away or bark but we can snap him out of that very quickly now. that wasn't always the case.

i have also used the clicker to build some confidence by taking it out when he's stressed . . . in the beginning, i was using it very simply, just to redirect his brain when he was starting to get nervous. if i saw some situation where he was showing some mild discomfort around a person for instance, i would not ask him to take food from the person, but i would take some treats, like bits of hot dog or bil-jac, and i would toss them a couple of inches under his nose and click when he was brave enough to take a step or to toward the hot dog. i would toss the bits a little further out each time, and when he was understanding the game, i'd throw them in the direction of the person who he was afraid of. never so far that he had to actually touch the person but far enough that he had to take the initiative to take some steps in that person's direction. in those exercises, we didn't even let the person touch the dog afterward. we wanted no pressure, just positive and easygoing interactions around people.

we also stopped feeding him from bowls, and went entirely to feeding with interactive toys, like kongs and whatnot. i was told by the woman we were working with that environmental enrichment can be a really big deal for an underconfident dog--working to manipulate those objects helps stimulate the brain and builds a bit of confidence and can help increase seritonin production in the brain . . . it's also satisfying and entertaining for the dog.

i have to say, these things made a huge difference in button. maybe incorporating some of that into faust's lifestyle will help you guys too. good luck with him. he's definitely adorable!
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