"Instinct" vs. "Obedience"???

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Postby madremissy » July 23rd, 2009, 11:30 pm

lol
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Postby GregMK9 » July 23rd, 2009, 11:31 pm

As I said previously, justified had the dog bitten when he did not leave. Nonjustifiable when he was leaving as there is no longer a threat present.
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Postby DemoDick » July 24th, 2009, 12:04 am

GregMK9 wrote:As I said previously, justified had the dog bitten when he did not leave. Nonjustifiable when he was leaving as there is no longer a threat present.


No. It's just not that simple. And let's remember, the dog was not sent, it broke though a window, which most people would expect to contain a dog.

Just because he is walking away you cannot state that the threat is no longer present, only that it is diminishing as the distance increases. Unless, of course, we consider the very real possibility that he was armed with a concealed firearm, as mentioned. In that case, the threat does not even diminish. It is present until he is out of line of sight and the victim is behind cover (not concealment) or he is verifiably disarmed (i.e. searched). Even if he is only armed with a knife, we have to consider things like his ability to physically breach the door or window to gain entry, his distance from the house and victim, etc. Those same things are in play if he is armed only with his natural weapons (i.e. hands, feet, elbows, knees, etc.).

Also, define "leaving" for our purposes here. Does that include a cessation of movement at the edge of the property? Because that's what he did. Sure, HE could claim that he did so to avoid a bite. In fact, that may be the case. But it's also possible that he stopped to consider producing a weapon to kill the dog and then enter the house. Why give a potential attacker the benefit of the doubt when we have very real and articulable justification to consider that he is a threat to our lives?

There are hundreds of variables in play here, from the size and strength of the attacker, his behavior during the incident, prior knowledge of his criminal record, the possibility of him being armed, etc. This is what I was talking about earlier with regards to not understanding use of force in these types of situations. It goes way beyond who was facing what direction, what an attorney told you, etc. The sum total of the circumstances are what gets considered. It takes a LONG time to absorb this stuff to the point that you can reason it out and apply it according to the standards of the law. Even then you HAVE to be able to articulate why you did what you did. If you can't articulate it yourself, then you can't reasonably be expected to teach others how to do so.

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Postby Jackuul » July 24th, 2009, 1:38 am

I believe an amendment needs to be added to the U.S. Constitution which would provide for barring someone from ever returning to your property, I.E. if you specifically forbid them, have it written, and have it filed with a clerk (or other official office such as anyone able to put a stamp on it and keep an archival copy) it would thus become a federal crime to break that order after they have been served a copy, or a copy posted on the property.

Failure to comply would be a one year term in federal prison, and if any further incident happens on the property like an assault or worse it immediately becomes a federal crime - thus if say one person were to be forbidden, and then commit a heinous crime, they could be put to death - even if they are in a state without capital punishment (although most states have executed since the 70s, a few have no provision for the death penalty - including Michigan, Maine, Alaska, Hawaii, and a few others).

Although a grim subject, it would act as an effective deterrent and, if I might add, justifiable homicide in self defense should be a provision - where if the person forbidden trespasses and is an immediate threat, they can be dispatched regardless of local or state law within reasonable means. He has a knife and you shoot him? Well, that's reasonable in my mind. He comes on the property to cause physical harm and he ends up mauled/dead? Still reasonable. He comes dressed as Bugs Bunny with no weapon and ends up decapitated? That would not be reasonable... Although if he had no pants on it could be justifiable.

----------------------------

If I were in this situation, where the police were not taking you seriously, I would in no uncertain terms ask to talk to a supervisor as DemoDick stated, and get to the point that:
A. You asked him to leave after he mentioned a gun as collateral and was requesting money
B. He initially refused to leave and became verbally abusive

If he brings up the dog, state that the animal was acting in defense of the property and you, as he had been menacing with his refusal to leave, although he did eventually comply.
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Postby cheekymunkee » July 24th, 2009, 2:59 am

Christine, IF he ever comes back to your house call the police & tell them that he told you he had a gun. You wont be lying, he DID tell you that and you dont know if he had it on him or not. And they wont take that lightly, or they shouldnt anyway.
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Postby GregMK9 » July 24th, 2009, 7:52 pm

Nowhere in there does he say he has a gun. He said he would let her hold a gun of his as collateral. Him having a gun is based on assumption. That's it? He never said he had it, he never brandished it. Nothing. Your using the logic of a police officer and applying to a civilian situation. And that will get a civilian in a heap of trouble.
I showed the original post to a friend of mine who is an AA county police officer just a short while ago because I wanted his opinion. I asked that when he was done reading it to then replace jumped on with the dog bit. His opinion is the guy did nothing wrong.
He also said that had the dog bitten the guy in the face they would have seized the dog. Anywhere else, AC would have been called and the dog would have more then likely been charged with it's first bite and placed on quarantine.But he could not say that for sure as AC is a separate division.
So, if in AA county an AA county officer said the guy did nothing wrong. Wouldn't that mean the dog had no business biting him in the opinion of that officer? Based on that officers report would that not open the owner of the dog up to liability? Regardless if the dog broke through a window or not?
If you'd like to speak to my buddy pm me I'll give you his name and number. I am also waiting for an AC officer whom I have regular dealings with to get back to me so I can show her the post as well and get her opinion of the scenario.
As far as deployment of a pp dog, training and such I think I know a lot more then most, have had better training, and worked with more pp dog/ handler teams then most. So I think I know what I'm doing as do the teams who have trained under me and the people whom invite me out to do seminars.
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Postby LMM » July 24th, 2009, 7:59 pm

I just have to say, and I am not a police officer, if someone mentioned a gun in the manner in which this guy did my first thought (being a little nervous/annoyed already) would be "whoa, he has a gun?!". I would assume, right or wrong, that he had it on him if he was offering it up.


Is it an assumption? Sure it is but it's not a ridiculous assumption to make given this entire situation.
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Postby amazincc » July 24th, 2009, 8:01 pm

GregMK9 wrote: I showed the original post to a friend of mine who is an AA county police officer just a short while ago because I wanted his opinion. I asked that when he was done reading it to then replace jumped on with the dog bit. His opinion is the guy did nothing wrong.


:o
Bet his "opinion" would differ a little if we were talking about his mother... daughter... sister... wife... :rolleyes2: :bs:
I'm just sayin'. :|

About the hypothetical bite... yup, he's correct. Except in my county it wouldn't have been quarantine... no benefit of the doubt or second chances for Pits here.
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Postby Jackuul » July 24th, 2009, 8:05 pm

Too bad the country cannot rewind its mindset to the 1910's when the APBT was the "American Dog".
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Postby cheekymunkee » July 24th, 2009, 8:08 pm

LMM wrote:I just have to say, and I am not a police officer, if someone mentioned a gun in the manner in which this guy did my first thought (being a little nervous/annoyed already) would be "whoa, he has a gun?!". I would assume, right or wrong, that he had it on him if he was offering it up.


Is it an assumption? Sure it is but it's not a ridiculous assumption to make given this entire situation.


Yup, and assuming that the guy did not have a gun ( even though he SAID he did) will often times get one killed. I always assume ( silly me) that when a person SAYS they have a gun, that they do indeed have one. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. I aint taking the chance personally. However others are free to do what you wish.
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Postby amazincc » July 24th, 2009, 8:08 pm

Jackuul wrote:Too bad the country cannot rewind its mindset to the 1910's when the APBT was the "American Dog".



I SOOOOO agree. :)
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Postby LMM » July 24th, 2009, 8:10 pm

cheekymunkee wrote:
LMM wrote:I just have to say, and I am not a police officer, if someone mentioned a gun in the manner in which this guy did my first thought (being a little nervous/annoyed already) would be "whoa, he has a gun?!". I would assume, right or wrong, that he had it on him if he was offering it up.


Is it an assumption? Sure it is but it's not a ridiculous assumption to make given this entire situation.


Yup, and assuming that the guy did not have a gun ( even though he SAID he did) will often times get one killed. I always assume ( silly me) that when a person SAYS they have a gun, that they do indeed have one. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. I aint taking the chance personally. However others are free to do what you wish.


No bullshyt.
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Postby amazincc » July 24th, 2009, 8:21 pm

cheekymunkee wrote:Yup, and assuming that the guy did not have a gun ( even though he SAID he did) will often times get one killed. I always assume ( silly me) that when a person SAYS they have a gun, that they do indeed have one. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. I aint taking the chance personally. However others are free to do what you wish.


Well, of course I *assumed* he had it on him when he mentioned he'd give it to me in exchange for bail money... it's the logical thing to assume. I hand over some money - he hands over a weapon.

Like I said... I wasn't scared but I was SO freakin' annoyed at the thought of this little $hit even having a gun in his possession, whether he actually physically had it on him or it was just parked on his kitchen table.
I'm now thinking I should've taken it... one less weapon in the hands of a crminal who is definitely not a stranger to the legal system. :rolleyes2:
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Postby GregMK9 » July 24th, 2009, 8:22 pm

Yes, it probably would change as would anyone else's I'm sure. I don't mean to seem like I'm downplaying your situation cause I'm not. It was a very real threat. Just honestly didn't really like the way it came back on my fiance. She didn't deserve to be badgered like that. It's funny how b/c people don't know her they try to downplay her dog knowledge when she knows more then most. I honestly think there's a lot of people on here who are nothing more then keyboard dog trainers but I never badger or try to publicly degrade them. It's not fair to the person or the people who frequent the board to gain useful knowledge or post useful info.
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Postby LMM » July 24th, 2009, 8:29 pm

You know, I can appreciate what you've done here Greg. Coming to you fiance's defense. I really can but this begs the question (for me anyway) why couldn't Katrina do this herself? I don't know Katrina well enough to know her exact level of expertise. I do know she makes many helpful posts in a variety of topics. It just seems everything would carry a little more weight to defend herself with her wide array of knowledge.

But holy hell, if I need a bodyguard, I'm calling you!
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Postby iluvk9 » July 24th, 2009, 8:31 pm

I think it is nice that Greg showed up to give another point of view AND defend the love of his life. :wave2:
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Postby amazincc » July 24th, 2009, 8:35 pm

GregMK9 wrote:Yes, it probably would change as would anyone else's I'm sure. I don't mean to seem like I'm downplaying your situation cause I'm not. It was a very real threat. Just honestly didn't really like the way it came back on my fiance. She didn't deserve to be badgered like that. It's funny how b/c people don't know her they try to downplay her dog knowledge when she knows more then most. I honestly think there's a lot of people on here who are nothing more then keyboard dog trainers but I never badger or try to publicly degrade them. It's not fair to the person or the people who frequent the board to gain useful knowledge or post useful info.


I know you're not downplaying my "situation"... :wave2:

I happen to agree w/Katrina about teaching Sepp a 150% reliable recall, given that my usually well-adjusted and mild-mannered dog felt the need to guard me from someone who acted like an a$$... it could've turned out very bad for Sepp, and I completely "get" that.

On the other hand... Demo IS a PO, so I also trust his judgement and evaluation of the "alleged" (for legal purposes :wink: ) incident.

Anything else that goes on, or gets in the way of a civil discussion/thread... like personal stuff between members... I didn't ask to be involved in that, didn't feel like I was, and have nothing further to say about it. :|

My lawyer told me to post that disclaimer. :D
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Postby amazincc » July 24th, 2009, 8:38 pm

iluvk9 wrote:I think it is nice that Greg showed up to give another point of view AND defend the love of his life. :wave2:



Yeah, the men on this board... holy cow!!! :shock: :)

I thought chivalry was dead and buried.
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Postby madremissy » July 24th, 2009, 9:05 pm

GregMK9 wrote:Yes, it probably would change as would anyone else's I'm sure. I don't mean to seem like I'm downplaying your situation cause I'm not. It was a very real threat. Just honestly didn't really like the way it came back on my fiance. She didn't deserve to be badgered like that. It's funny how b/c people don't know her they try to downplay her dog knowledge when she knows more then most. I honestly think there's a lot of people on here who are nothing more then keyboard dog trainers but I never badger or try to publicly degrade them. It's not fair to the person or the people who frequent the board to gain useful knowledge or post useful info.


I agree 100%!!

LMM I think she has tried numerous times to defend herself but each time was totally disrespected. So why would she feel like posting anything else when it was just falling on deaf ears and rude comments. She is my mind chose the high road and was trying to keep drama off the board.
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Postby pitbullmamaliz » July 24th, 2009, 9:11 pm

Nobody was disrespected. Experience/education regarding the matter questioned? Yes. But that's not disrespectful.

Now let's keep the drama off the board. This is a great discussion as long as it remains drama free. Everybody, and I mean EVERYBODY, needs to unbunch their panties.
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