"Instinct" vs. "Obedience"???

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Postby ArtGypsy » July 23rd, 2009, 4:55 pm

Well, I'm wondering too, *since we're on the topic of what warrants arrest or not *no pun intended*, an officer can take a report, issue a citation and it's still up to the PA ((county or city(
whether or not they deem it serious enough to follow through on.

Here, I can pretty much guarantee that coming ONTO your property *especially since he was there before)would not get very far.

There is a general consensus that we are 'inviting' the general public to our door by sidewalks, door ways, etc......and that a dog biting you simply because you're ON the property is a big no no.

Depends on where you are, too, I suppose.

PLEASE nobody flame me.

I am not a real cop, parole officer, attorney, judge or Doctor.
I just play one on T.V. :mrgreen:
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Anger that things are the way they are.
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Postby Jackuul » July 23rd, 2009, 5:26 pm

If you ask someone to leave, and they do not leave, is that not trespassing?
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Postby amazincc » July 23rd, 2009, 5:46 pm

lol @ Jody playin' a doctor on TV...

"The seriousness of the trespass will be the determining factor of how the offense will be handled judicially. As a rule of thumb, the law allows for a criminal trespass to go unpunished if no harm or damage results."
excerpt from http://www.socyberty.com/Law/Legal-Defi ... ser.119383

Yup, I think the dog and I would've been screwed if a bite had occured. :bs:
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Postby LMM » July 23rd, 2009, 6:16 pm

Oy :shock:
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Postby CinderDee » July 23rd, 2009, 6:39 pm

I hate to see the members fighting, but this is a really interesting thread.
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Postby ArtGypsy » July 23rd, 2009, 7:39 pm

Jackuul wrote:If you ask someone to leave, and they do not leave, is that not trespassing?



I guess the problem lies in the definition of 'not leaving'..

If someone is mouthing, and even cursing you and slowly backing away, they're still leaving.
It also matters whether or not the person has had prior warnings to not come back to the property.

When I read through the narratives from the officers that were called repeatedly to a house where my CASA kids parents would fight, it AMAZED me at how much time these officers have to spend going back and forth between these fighting families to 'give notice' that 'so and so' doesn't want you back on the property.

THEN, if they return, the officer can arrest them.

Or..........if an officer arrives at a call, and you tell them "i want so and so arrested because they won't leave......."" the officer will usually look at the person and say""" she wants you to leave . Are you going to leave ??:""

if they don't, then the officer can arrest.
But if the person says ""okay, okay, I'll leave">..That officer doesn't usually encourage the caller to 'go ahead and sign a ticket'..........

This is what I've HEARD about over the years.
Again,,,,,,I am not a police officer or an attorney.
But I do know how far even simple arguing can go without an arrest, I can't believe in Christine's situation, an officer would come to the house and arrest the guy after he left.

BUT I COULD BE WRONG.
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Postby pitbullmamaliz » July 23rd, 2009, 7:51 pm

An arrest isn't necessarily the goal here - a paperwork trail is. That way if, GOD FORBID, this asshat does something, there is already proof that he has acted threateningly before.
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Postby ArtGypsy » July 23rd, 2009, 8:12 pm

pitbullmamaliz wrote:An arrest isn't necessarily the goal here - a paperwork trail is. That way if, GOD FORBID, this asshat does something, there is already proof that he has acted threateningly before.



Yes, that's so true............but I thought the thread turned into whether or not he could have been arrested that night or not......... :|

This is just all so unfortunate................all over a knuckle=head.... :cuss:
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Anger that things are the way they are.
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Postby amazincc » July 23rd, 2009, 8:17 pm

Yeah, a paper trail would have been nice, Liz.
I tried, but after my conversation w/Concord PD... eh.


Jody -I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT. :wink:

My hooligan of a dog could've gotten himself into serious trouble IF my creepy neighbor had wanted to press charges... even if the incident happened on my property. Who knew??? :|

There seems to be a lot of wiggle room when it comes to interpreting "the law" in any given situation, and no two people will perceive an incident the exact same way... it's human nature.
Sometimes it doesn't work in favor of the person who didn't start the ball rolling - that sucks, but it's reality.
I'm going to take some of this really GOOD advice that was given to heart, and I will act accordingly if I'm ever in a predicament like that again.
As for Sepp... I'm *secretly* SOOOO proud of him ( :oops: :oops: :oops: ), but I'm going to make sure that he is securely confined in his crate from now on if I think there might be "a battle to be fought that he might want to *help* with".
There's also a lock on my gate now so nobody can sneak up to the house. :rolleyes2:
I resent having to do all this because my motto has always been "live, and let live"... but, really, there's no other way of getting around some peoples stupidity or irresponsible/borderline criminal behavior. :bs: :nono:

So... can anyone recommend a good training/recall exercise we can practice that has a burglary/unlawful entry/scuzzy-neighbor-yelling-at-Mom motive to it??? Because Sepp darted after a very small squirrel in our yard today, and when I called him off... he immediately complied. And I mean, immediately. :D :D :D :D :D
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Postby amazincc » July 23rd, 2009, 8:30 pm

P.S.

Jody, who's NOT-a-vet-but-plays-one-on-TV has diagnosed him w/"situational deafness". :dance:
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Postby BigDogBuford » July 23rd, 2009, 8:47 pm

amazincc wrote:P.S.

Jody, who's NOT-a-vet-but-plays-one-on-TV has diagnosed him w/"situational deafness". :dance:


Ahhhhh, selective deafness. Alfred has that. :dance:
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Postby ArtGypsy » July 23rd, 2009, 10:00 pm

amazincc wrote:P.S.

Jody, who's NOT-a-vet-but-plays-one-on-TV has diagnosed him w/"situational deafness". :dance:

LOL LOL...

Tis True............
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Anger that things are the way they are.
Courage to make them the way they ought to be.”----Augustine
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Postby TheRedQueen » July 23rd, 2009, 10:03 pm

It wouldn't hurt to set up some scenarios with friends/helpers...we have people act funny in puppy class for this reason...we don't want the service dog pups getting upset about weird movements, strange mannerisms, etc.
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Postby amazincc » July 23rd, 2009, 10:12 pm

TheRedQueen wrote:It wouldn't hurt to set up some scenarios with friends/helpers...we have people act funny in puppy class for this reason...we don't want the service dog pups getting upset about weird movements, strange mannerisms, etc.


It doesn't get any weirder than a complete stranger jumping up and down on the roof, hammering, making loud noises, and throwing branches to the ground... and then dragging a ladder into your Moms room to crawl into the attic... huh??? :shock: :|
And if the NC drawl didn't do him in on top of that... I think Sepp is fine. lol
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Postby TheRedQueen » July 23rd, 2009, 10:16 pm

:giggle:
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Postby DemoDick » July 23rd, 2009, 10:19 pm

Jackuul wrote:If you ask someone to leave, and they do not leave, is that not trespassing?


This is the most important thing. Really.

If I am understanding this correctly, Christine told the guy to leave and he initially refused to do so. At minimum we have met the requirement for a simple Trespass. In NY state, if the guy was in a fenced enclosure or another structure designed to limit entry, we have a Criminal Trespass 3rd, which is one level up (a Misdemeanor). Here are the relevant NY State statutes:

http://ypdcrime.com/penal.law/article140.htm

And here is the NC statute:

http://www.ncleg.net/EnactedLegislation ... e_22B.html

If the hyperlink doesn't work, here is the relevant info:

14‑159.13. Second degree trespass.

(a) Offense. – A person commits the offense of second degree trespass if, without authorization, he enters or remains on premises of another:

(1) After he has been notified not to enter or remain there by the owner, by a person in charge of the premises, by a lawful occupant, or by another authorized person
; or

(2) That are posted, in a manner reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders, with notice not to enter the premises.

(b) Classification. – Second degree trespass is a Class 3 misdemeanor. (1987, c. 700, s. 1; 1993, c. 539, s. 102; 1994, Ex. Sess., c. 24, s. 14(c).)


(bold and italics added)

So what we have is very clearly a Second Degree Trespass 14.159.13(a)1, which is a Misdemeanor charge. He remained on the property because he failed to immediately obey the order of the property owner to leave. This took me two minutes to find, via Google, BTW.

With regards to the use of force, as I have already stated, the ability to justify a given level of force is entirely situational and is dependant on the sum total of the circumstances as well as what a reasonable person of similar experience and training would believe in the same situation. The person must also be able to articulate WHY they used the force that they did. This is JUST as important, because you can be justified in using force all day, but if you fail to articulate how you came to that reasonable belief that you or your property were about to be harmed and why you acted in the manner you did, you're probably going to face criminal as well as civil penalties.

And as already mentioned, each jurisdiction is different with regards to how they interpret Castle doctrine and something called duty to retreat. You must act in a manner consitent with what the law expects of you AND be able to articulate and justify your actions should you use force against another for any reason.

My point was simple. There is no such thing as a cut and dry answer with regards to the use of force, and in Christine's case, if the dog HAD bit, there is ample information based upon his actions (belligerency, aggressive verbalization and the failure to leave the property, as well as his statements about the gun) for a reasonable person to fear that they were in danger and to severely weaken the suspect's case that he was "attacked by a dangerous dog."

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Postby amazincc » July 23rd, 2009, 10:50 pm

So what we have is very clearly a Second Degree Trespass 14.159.13(a)1, which is a Misdemeanor charge. He remained on the property because he failed to immediately obey the order of the property owner to leave. This took me two minutes to find, via Google, BTW.


I might want to pass this little tidbit of info on to Concord PD, because, clearly, they don't.
Google, I mean. lol

Like I told you... "no money/gun exchanged hands, guy left eventually, NOTHING reportable transpired, Ma'am... I'm TELLING you!" - out of the mouth of the desk lady on duty.
So, I'm not knocking the PD as a whole... I guess we're just a little more lacksadaisical about interpretation of the law in these here parts. :giggle:

Now... can we all stop losing sleep and friends over this thread? :smileUp:
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Postby DemoDick » July 23rd, 2009, 11:06 pm

amazincc wrote:
So what we have is very clearly a Second Degree Trespass 14.159.13(a)1, which is a Misdemeanor charge. He remained on the property because he failed to immediately obey the order of the property owner to leave. This took me two minutes to find, via Google, BTW.


I might want to pass this little tidbit of info on to Concord PD, because, clearly, they don't.
Google, I mean. lol

Like I told you... "no money/gun exchanged hands, guy left eventually, NOTHING reportable transpired, Ma'am... I'm TELLING you!" - out of the mouth of the desk lady on duty.
So, I'm not knocking the PD as a whole... I guess we're just a little more lacksadaisical about interpretation of the law in these here parts. :giggle:

Now... can we all stop losing sleep and friends over this thread? :smileUp:


You got blown off. I'd be asking for a supervisor (Sergeant or above), and be clear that the guy refused to leave, but after repeated orders did eventually did so, and that you are now concerned for your safety and unable to get a restraining order because no arrest was made.
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Postby katiek0417 » July 23rd, 2009, 11:16 pm

Christine, here where I live, you can apply for a "peace order" (which, as I understand it, is like a restraining order, they just have a different name for it)...and you can get it without an arrest...if you have a reasonable fear for your life, or think you/property is in danger, you go and fill out the paperwork, then there is an immediate hearing. You tell the judge why you are in fear, and they may grant a temporary peace order...seven days later, you go back (and the other person also appears) and you have a chance to say why you want a peace order, and the other person defends himself/herself...

I actually just went with my friend, Nicole, when she applied for one...and that guy had never been arrested...

Do they have anything like that where you are?
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Postby amazincc » July 23rd, 2009, 11:28 pm

I'm thinking of just printing out this whole thread, marching over to his house, and bopping him in the head w/it. Putting the fear-of-PBT into him, so to speak... because if I was on that other end of everyones wrath... holy Moses... I'd consider leaving the US altogether right about now. :shock: :shock: :shock:
Stupid little twerp had NO idea that some complete strangers would take his actions very personal... did he now? :rolleyes2: :wink:

I love you guys, I swear. :heartbeat: lol
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