"Instinct" vs. "Obedience"???

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Postby LMM » July 22nd, 2009, 10:16 am

amazincc wrote:
CinderDee wrote:This is probably way too paranoid, but keep an eye out for this guy, especially because he's PO'd and has a gun. I'd hate to see anything happen to Sepp.



Nope, not too paranoid at all, Dee... his yard borders directly onto my back yard, and I'm going to check it every day to make sure he hasn't thrown anything harmful over here. The dogs won't go out there alone either.

Yeah, the gun thing bugs me a lot... I can only hope that they'll move eventually. :neutral:

And God help the person who harms one of my pets.



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Postby kera09 » July 22nd, 2009, 10:20 am

i think seppel did a wonderful job....now i know this kind of behavior isnt what we like to see, but he protected you,whether you needed it or not. if its just that one creep hes not so nice to, this guy must be a total ass! keep a close eye on them in the yard, who knows what this a hole could do! good boy sepp! :confused:
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Postby LMM » July 22nd, 2009, 10:21 am

Oh and I'm sure you know this but no more money to this loser neighbor missy! :x
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Postby Pit♥bull » July 22nd, 2009, 10:23 am

amazincc wrote:
And God help the person who harms one of my pets.
He will have the wrath of PBT to deal with :mad2:
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Postby kera09 » July 22nd, 2009, 10:36 am

i had to call eric and tell him this story! he said good boy sepp for saving his momma!
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Postby ArtGypsy » July 22nd, 2009, 10:40 am

OH CHRISTINE........... :shock:
Holy Majoley, that's a lot of 'stuff' to deal with, comin' at cha all at one time!!

And I'm of the opinion that Sepp did exactly what he was supposed to do. He was able to 'read' the situation and behave accordingly.
One would only have to look at his over all personality to see this was nothing more than him perceiving danger and doing everything he could do to protect you.

I bet that guy NEVER comes back again, that's for sure!! :dance: :rolleyes2:

-------Jody, thinking perhaps the Pit=Bull-Posse Should take a ROAD TRIP; Just to 'tidy' things up a bit.
ya know.............*sniff and shrug*, loose ends, in case this guy doesn't get it yet.....
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Anger that things are the way they are.
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Postby LMM » July 22nd, 2009, 10:45 am

I'm all for posses.
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Postby katiek0417 » July 22nd, 2009, 12:48 pm

Okay, I've been reading everyone's responses, and I want to chime in here....this is based purely from a legal standpoint and my knowledge of biting dogs (and how the two work together).

Yes, Seppel was faced with a threat. Yes, he defended Christine, himself, and his territory. Yes, this was fight drive. HOWEVER, this could've ended very badly. If the guy had not stayed put, and, instead tried to escape, it is very possible, Sepp would've bitten. No one knows for sure...but I'm almost positive.

Here's the problem...at that point, especially if the guy's back is turned, it goes from fight drive to prey drive. Prey drive is the instinct to hunt, chase, etc. If Sepp has ball drive (wants to chase a ball) he has prey drive.

Now, prey drive and fight drive on their own are not bad, and can be very useful. Unfortunately, this is where things get sticky. In MANY municipalities, if your dog bites someone on your property it's okay...AS LONG AS the person is facing your dog or coming towards your dog (threateningly of course). In many municipalities, if your dog bites someone while he/she is running away, you can still be held accountable under vicious/aggressive dog laws.

Why? Because many municipalities realize there is a difference between someone coming towards you and someone running away.

For this reason, if your dog has the potential to bite someone, it is very important to have a strong recall under any and all circumstances. There is one dog in my house that will not bite for real (the lab) - every other dog has an extremely strong recall - the ones with recalls not as strong as the others (the older ones vs. the younger ones) are kept on line when they are out in the house so there are no mistakes.

Christine, I applaud the fact that Sepp instinctually defended you...there are few dogs (even ones that are trained to protect) that will do that. However, I would strongly recommend that you make your recall with him as close to 100% as possible...under all conditions...he can't have a choice anymore about whether he comes to you...

Erin, yes, it's possible that he didn't hear her. However, you can train a dog to always listen even if it's in drive. It's just obedience.

And, Christine, one more thing. I would remove the Dogs on Property sign, and put on No Trespassing or something like that...the problem with dogs on property signs (or beware of dog) is that if your dog bites, there have been cases where those signs have been used as evidence that you know you have a dog that bites and don't have safeguards in place...

Like I said, my opinions are based on more of a legal standpoint...I have done a lot of research into these types of laws all over the place because of my interest in personal protection dogs.
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Postby LMM » July 22nd, 2009, 1:25 pm

I also have a little legal background with the whole sign thing and the dogs on property sign is fine. However, a beware of dogs would NOT be fine in some states. Beware of dogs, from a legal standpoint, demonstrates you know (even if this may not be the case) that you have a potentially dangerous dog on your hands and you can be held legally liable if something were to happen.

Dogs on property lets people know (i.e. delivery people) that there are, in fact, dogs on the property. Nothing more or less. Christine, just to be safe you can look into that for your particular area and accommodate accordingly.
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Postby LMM » July 22nd, 2009, 1:27 pm

And I admit, I may have missed this but where in her original post was she saying this guy's back was to Seppel? I guess I'm just curious why that's being mentioned.

If that were me, the last thing I would do is turn my back on a charging dog. Smart or not, I would want to face the problem to be in a better position to handle it.

*going back to re-read in case I missed it!*
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Postby Jackuul » July 22nd, 2009, 2:03 pm

I wonder if they could claim it is a dangerous dog and take it away if the sign said "Beware of Vicious Chihuahua".

I'm a bit miffed at the whole idea of people using a warning against you. "I was hurt while breaking into his house - so I am going to sue him!" kind of miffed.
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Postby DemoDick » July 22nd, 2009, 2:10 pm

Good god.

(1) Hopefully you learned something about generosity when it comes to assholes like this (i.e. don't feed them).
(2) You should have called 911 and had him arrested for trespass (at minimum).
(3) I don't think you are taking this seriously enough.

I'm not sure what it's going to take for you to learn this, but I'll repeat it. Don't get hurt because you give people the benefit of the doubt. Predators like this guy feed on that. His ilk mistake kindness for weakness...actually most people do. If you learn this the hard way the people who care about you are going to get hurt too. That's not fair to them.

The dog is a seperate issue. As to what Erin wrote, no, some dogs actually DO want to bite when it is appropriate. If the dog did not bite him in this case, then IMO the dog did not go far enough. He was clearly trespassing on your property and acting aggressively towards you and the dog had the opportunity to take the bite while he was doing these things. It would have been completely justified, and he should have stopped by the emergency room on his way to jail.

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Postby katiek0417 » July 22nd, 2009, 2:10 pm

LMM wrote:And I admit, I may have missed this but where in her original post was she saying this guy's back was to Seppel? I guess I'm just curious why that's being mentioned.

If that were me, the last thing I would do is turn my back on a charging dog. Smart or not, I would want to face the problem to be in a better position to handle it.

*going back to re-read in case I missed it!*


I'm saying if the guy tried to escape...I never said he wasn't facing Seppel...

This is my exact quote...

If the guy had not stayed put, and, instead tried to escape, it is very possible, Sepp would've bitten. No one knows for sure...but I'm almost positive.

Here's the problem...at that point, especially if the guy's back is turned, it goes from fight drive to prey drive.


Jackuul wrote:I wonder if they could claim it is a dangerous dog and take it away if the sign said "Beware of Vicious Chihuahua".

I'm a bit miffed at the whole idea of people using a warning against you. "I was hurt while breaking into his house - so I am going to sue him!" kind of miffed.


Actually, yeah...I've met some chihuahuas that would f*ck you up! And they tend to do just as much if not more damage b/c they nip and they have sharper teeth!
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

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Postby LMM » July 22nd, 2009, 2:16 pm

katiek0417 wrote:
LMM wrote:And I admit, I may have missed this but where in her original post was she saying this guy's back was to Seppel? I guess I'm just curious why that's being mentioned.

If that were me, the last thing I would do is turn my back on a charging dog. Smart or not, I would want to face the problem to be in a better position to handle it.

*going back to re-read in case I missed it!*


I'm saying if the guy tried to escape...I never said he wasn't facing Seppel...

This is my exact quote...

If the guy had not stayed put, and, instead tried to escape, it is very possible, Sepp would've bitten. No one knows for sure...but I'm almost positive.

Here's the problem...at that point, especially if the guy's back is turned, it goes from fight drive to prey drive.


I wasn't saying you said anything I just wondered why we were talking that type of scenario. It didn't happen that way (apparently) so it just didn't make any sense to me. No harm no foul :)
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Postby katiek0417 » July 22nd, 2009, 2:20 pm

I was just looking at it from the point of view of how many people run away facing something? You typically run towards things...and if adrenaline kicks in, you're not going to think you're just going to do...and most people will want to watch where they're going so they don't trip over something and fall then it shortens the gap between them and the dog...

that's all...so that's why I mentioned it...
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Postby Jackuul » July 22nd, 2009, 2:22 pm

Of the dog breeds that "scare" me, the smaller they are, the more wary I am to be honest. I still think people are the most dangerous animal out there.
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Postby LMM » July 22nd, 2009, 2:22 pm

Oh I get that but the way she described the "final scene" with both stuck on the spot, I assumed he was facing Seppel. Like I said, I may not run facing someone but if we are squared off and I am corned, my back damn sure won't be turned!

But then he's already proven himself to be an idiot so maybe his was :)
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Postby DemoDick » July 22nd, 2009, 2:34 pm

katiek0417 wrote:Like I said, my opinions are based on more of a legal standpoint...I have done a lot of research into these types of laws all over the place because of my interest in personal protection dogs.


No, it most definitely does not work that way. I'm not sure where you got your information, but it is absolutely dead wrong. The use of force is scrutinized by what is reasonable, regardless of the type of force used, be it dog, pepper spray, firearm, etc. It will be judged based on what a reasonable person with the same experience, training, and perspective would have believed and done in the same situation.

Bad guy on your property without a lawful purpose who has been ordered off the property who continues to act in an aggressive and belligerent manner=justified bite. He wasn't trying to escape when he froze, turn and faced the dog. That evinces an intent to remain on the property. He could argue that he was trying to avoid a bite, but the bottom line is that he was there unlawfully. I would further make the argument that immediately prior to the dog leaving the residence he was attempting entry into the house, which would make him a potential home invader. And, oh yeah, he offered to let her borrow his GUN, from which one could reasonably assume the possibility that he had it on him at the time. All of these are reasonable assumptions based on the provided information.

Now, if the bite happened out in the street, off the curtilage of the property, then it's a different matter. Castle laws are different in every state, but as long as you clearly demonstrate that you had a reasonable cause to believe that you were in danger and that the force you used was appropriate, you are justified. I think Christine would have been all set in the legal sense, provided that she articulated the situation correctly to the LEO that responded. This is a BIG pet peeve of mine in PP dogs...so few who train and sell them have even the slightest CLUE how to articulate the justification of their application to the authorities after a bite. It's like giving a student a gun safety class and then leaving it up to them to figure out how and when to use the weapon in defense of themselves or another, as well as explain and justify the use of force after the fact.

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Postby Malli » July 22nd, 2009, 2:36 pm

I'm just replying to Christine's question on correcting the behavior, I haven't read past that so I apologize...

I worked with Katrina a bit, and I taught Oscar "watch me" wich is our command "focus", so if I saw him "doing the stare down" or "woofing" I'd tell him "focus!" and he'd make eye contact, and then from that point, once he fully understood the task, if he'd bark(I often got small barks while me maintained SOLID eye contact :giggle: ) or try to break eye contact and look away, THEN he would get a small verbal and leash correction ("hey, I said look to me")

I honestly wouldn't correct him if I thought his reaction was appropriate, though :|
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Postby katiek0417 » July 22nd, 2009, 3:01 pm

DemoDick wrote:
katiek0417 wrote:Like I said, my opinions are based on more of a legal standpoint...I have done a lot of research into these types of laws all over the place because of my interest in personal protection dogs.


No, it most definitely does not work that way. I'm not sure where you got your information, but it is absolutely dead wrong. The use of force is scrutinized by what is reasonable, regardless of the type of force used, be it dog, pepper spray, firearm, etc. It will be judged based on what a reasonable person with the same experience, training, and perspective would have believed and done in the same situation.

Bad guy on your property without a lawful purpose who has been ordered off the property who continues to act in an aggressive and belligerent manner=justified bite. He wasn't trying to escape when he froze, turn and faced the dog. That evinces an intent to remain on the property. He could argue that he was trying to avoid a bite, but the bottom line is that he was there unlawfully. I would further make the argument that immediately prior to the dog leaving the residence he was attempting entry into the house, which would make him a potential home invader. And, oh yeah, he offered to let her borrow his GUN, from which one could reasonably assume the possibility that he had it on him at the time. All of these are reasonable assumptions based on the provided information.

Now, if the bite happened out in the street, off the curtilage of the property, then it's a different matter. Castle laws are different in every state, but as long as you clearly demonstrate that you had a reasonable cause to believe that you were in danger and that the force you used was appropriate, you are justified. I think Christine would have been all set in the legal sense, provided that she articulated the situation correctly to the LEO that responded. This is a BIG pet peeve of mine in PP dogs...so few who train and sell them have even the slightest CLUE how to articulate the justification of their application to the authorities after a bite. It's like giving a student a gun safety class and then leaving it up to them to figure out how and when to use the weapon in defense of themselves or another, as well as explain and justify the use of force after the fact.

Demo Dick


I understand what you are saying, however, I have spoken to lawyers who have fought on both sides of these cases...and ones that are barred in different states...and they have all said that same thing...9 times out of 10 the dog was at fault...

Maybe people need to be taught better how to deal with situations like that, and how to make their reports...but they aren't. Personally, we don't sell PP dogs without working with people on different situations/scenarios and telling them the difference between threat/non-threat...but that's just us. I don't know what other people do.

And I will tell you this...in the state of MD, you better NOT shoot someone in the back, either...I know the state's attorneys here...and THEY have told me that...in the state of MD, it's questionable if even an LEO shoots someone in the back...and that came from the several cops that I know.
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

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Sacha CGC - Dumb Lab
Nisha CGC, PDC, PSA TC, PSA 1 - Crazy Malinois
Drusilla SLUT- Pet
Nemo - Dual-Purpose Narcotics
Cy TC, PSA 1, PSA 2, 2009 PSA Level 3 National Champion
Axo - Psycho Puppy
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