"Instinct" vs. "Obedience"???

[DemoDick]

I understand what you are saying, however, I have spoken to lawyers who have fought on both sides of these cases...and ones that are barred in different states...and they have all said that same thing...9 times out of 10 the dog was at fault...

The problem is likely that you are talking to civil, not criminal lawyers. There is no determination of fault in a criminal trial, there is a determination of guilt. Once you have the guy arrested (and if you had your dog bite him, you'd better), his standing for a civil trial is severely weakened, if not entirely dismissed. When you produce criminal documents in civil court that clearly illustrate that the plaintiff was not only committing a crime against you at the time of the bite, but that you immediately called 911 for his medical attention and police documentation, well, you can see his attorney banging his head on the table already.

Maybe people need to be taught better how to deal with situations like that, and how to make their reports...but they aren't. Personally, we don't sell PP dogs without working with people on different situations/scenarios and telling them the difference between threat/non-threat...but that's just us. I don't know what other people do.

Given what you have written about this subject here and elsewhere, I'm not sure that you understand how to effectively train people to properly deploy and justify the use of a PP dog. I'm not even sure that you can do so yourself.

And I will tell you this...in the state of MD, you better NOT shoot someone in the back, either...I know the state's attorneys here...and THEY have told me that...in the state of MD, it's questionable if even an LEO shoots someone in the back...and that came from the several cops that I know.

That's because you don't understand the underlying issue, and they do. If you got it, you wouldn't have brought this up. The justification of the use of force is entirely situational. What if I shoot someone in the back who is advancing on a loved one while armed with a knife? Justified.

Demo Dick

[cheekymunkee]

And this is why I LOVE Texas, if he is on my property & I feel threatened it is my right to dispose of him how I see fit. Whether it be my dog or a gun, the direction the person is facing does not come into play at all. Even if I dont feel physically threatened but my property is being damaged I am free to shoot to kill.

Christine, be CAREFUL!!!!! As far as correcting Seppel, I would have bought him a steak.

[DemoDick]

And this is why I LOVE Texas, if he is on my property & I feel threatened it is my right to dispose of him how I see fit. Whether it be my dog or a gun, the direction the person is facing does not come into play at all. Even if I dont feel physically threatened but my property is being damaged I am free to shoot to kill.

Yet another reason for me to consider relocating.

Demo Dick

[amazincc]

Well, I always (jokingly) say that "no good deed goes unpunished"... guess I'm going to take that more to heart now, huh?

Going to try and address everyone in one post, since I've gone over last nights scenario in my head all day.

My sign does say "Dogs On Property", simply to make UPS/delivery people/FedEx and what-have-you aware of the fact that I have dogs living here. It's not intended to scare anyone since I never had any reason to believe that my dogs ARE dangerous to people (which they aren't), and I've decided to leave the sign as is.

Sepp isn't "trained" as a PP dog, of course, and I will not consider him to be my weapon of choice, ever. What happened last night was completely out of character for him.
When I got out in the yard they were facing each other... my gate isn't that far away from the house, so by the time Sepp went through the screen the guy had pretty much crossed my yard already, and was trying to open the gate to get out.
I also believe that Sepp did hear me call him - his tail wagged twice (like in acknowledgement... "yes, I hear you..."), but he wouldn't budge.
The lunging and snapping happened after I attached his leash and the guy was fumbling w/the gate to open it.

The reason I didn't call police... well, first of all I was pretty damned rattled. Second - I was scared for Sepp. In our county a dog can be taken away for displaying aggression, and it doesn't even have to go as far as a bite. Pit Bulls are not adopted out and are routinely gassed by the shelters around here. It's the law. When Fausts parents were picked up, and if Faust had been on the property, he would've been gassed... no exceptions, not even for puppies.
Third - it was about 12:30/1:00 AM when all this happened... it would've been a "he said - she said" kind of thing, because there was nobody around to witness any of this.
I also didn't think of trespassing, because people knock on other peoples doors all the time and you can't get them arrested for that... right?
Fourth - the idiot did attempt to leave when I asked/told him to. He just didn't leave fast enough or quiet enough for Sepps taste...

I also don't know for sure if my neighbor had the gun on his person, since I never actually saw one. He just offered it as collateral, verbally.
I didn't feel threatened at all, just majorly annoyed.

Yes, my neighbor is a scummy little weasel, but I don't think he broke an "actual" law last night.
And, of course, IF Sepp had bitten him I would've called police/911 immediately, regardless of the consequences to my dog... but it wouldve broken my heart to have to do so.
I am the person who reported Micks bite, initially... so I do realize what my "civic duties" are.

As for being "weak", Demo... it's a sad day when kindness is interpreted as weakness/foolishness, but unfortunately you are right. I do think, personally, that this guy is/was "casing out" my house. This feeling isn't just based on last night, but on other incidents and weird questions he has asked me.
Unfortunately, acting suspicious isn't grounds for a restraining order. I was told that "something has to actually happen first"...

As for Sepp - he was his lovable, goofy self today. Shared a cookie w/the mail man, went for a walk w/me and loved meeting all the people we encountered, slept w/one paw wrapped around a kitten afterwards...

AND he got a steak for dinner.

[DemoDick]

As for being "weak", Demo... it's a sad day when kindness is interpreted as weakness/foolishness, but unfortunately you are right. I do think, personally, that this guy is/was "casing out" my house. This feeling isn't just based on last night, but on other incidents and weird questions he has asked me.
Unfortunately, acting suspicious isn't grounds for a restraining order. I was told that "something has to actually happen first"...

I'm only going to say it one more time...he DID break the law and you COULD have had him arrested.

When someone on your property refuses to leave after you tell him to, that's at minimum a trespass charge. It doesn't matter that he "eventually" left. What matters is that he initially ignored your commands to leave.

Also, you have no idea if he was armed or not, but he GAVE you reason to suspect that he might be by his very own words. Again, you're giving him the benefit of the doubt when you should be more concerned with your own safety. To say he "probably" wasn't armed isn't good enough. Assume that he is, especially when HE brings up his gun in conversation. Given his other behaviors, it is perfectly reasonable (there's that word again) to assume that he might be armed and your life may be in danger. STOP GIVING THE BAD GUY THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT.

You say you didn't feel threatened...well, you should have. I would have, and I deal with this stuff daily.

You say that he was probably "casing" the house. Again, you're giving him too much credit. How do you know he wasn't casing YOU?

Demo Dick

[amazincc]

STOP GIVING THE BAD GUY THE BENEFIT OF THE DOUBT.

Demo Dick

I will... IF he shows up anywhere near my house/yard again I will call the police.

For now I'm giving Sepp the benefit of life.
What if this guy turns around and files charges against me for having a "dangerous" dog at my house and AC takes him away from me? I couldn't live w/that.

And STOP YELLING AT ME.

[BigDogBuford]

I would have made the police come and file an incident report. I do think he broke the law and your dog acted appropriately. Yes it's going to be your story against his but that's a good thing! He's a criminal and you're a responsible, tax paying citizen. I'm sure the cops know him for the scum he is. He has a gun and he acted in a threatening manner around you. The authorities need to know that.

Incidently, Buford reacted almost the exact same way once. I had a guy follow me into a parking lot and go all road rage on me. I was in a convertible and the gentleman hadn't seen Buford in the passenger seat. He came storming up to my car, screaming at me, veins popping out....it was scary! Buford stood up with his front paws on my legs, ALL the hair on his back went up, he looked the guy directly in the eyes and let out the scariest growl I've ever heard. His message was very clear,"Don't. Touch. My. Mommy." The guy practically fell on his ass he couldn't leave fast enough. I have no doubt if the guy had touched me Buford would have taken care of business. Fortunately it didn't come to that. I took him to Diary Queen for an ice cream cone. That was six years ago and I've never been in that situation again and I've never seen Buford act like that again.

[amazincc]

Crap... okay. I will file a report in the morning, mainly because he "offered" me a gun in exchange for money. If he's on probation that probably won't look good.

I know you all mean well and I really, really appreciate it.

[amazincc]

I called... I was told that "nothing transpired", so there is no report to be done.

I knew it.

[DemoDick]

I called... I was told that "nothing transpired", so there is no report to be done.

I knew it.

Check your PM's.

Demo Dick

[katiek0417]

Maybe people need to be taught better how to deal with situations like that, and how to make their reports...but they aren't. Personally, we don't sell PP dogs without working with people on different situations/scenarios and telling them the difference between threat/non-threat...but that's just us. I don't know what other people do.

Given what you have written about this subject here and elsewhere, I'm not sure that you understand how to effectively train people to properly deploy and justify the use of a PP dog. I'm not even sure that you can do so yourself.

Actually, I know a lot more about it than you think I do...I'm not going to get into a pissing match with you...I don't have the time nor the energy for it. That's the last I'm posting on this topic.

[DemoDick]

Actually, I know a lot more about it than you think I do...I'm not going to get into a pissing match with you...I don't have the time nor the energy for it. That's the last I'm posting on this topic.

Actually, it's the specific knowledge, training, and experience that you are lacking. And it's PAINFULLY apparent to those of us who know what the smurf we're talking about. Buh-bye!

(edited to add) If you really did know "more about it than I think you do" I would have expected you to prove it by posting something useful. Instead we have a classic case of a pedestrian lawyer out of her depth.

Demo Dick

[madremissy]

Actually, I know a lot more about it than you think I do...I'm not going to get into a pissing match with you...I don't have the time nor the energy for it. That's the last I'm posting on this topic.

Actually, it's the specific knowledge, training, and experience that you are lacking. And it's PAINFULLY apparent to those of us who know what the smurf we're talking about. Buh-bye!

(edited to add) If you really did know "more about it than I think you do" I would have expected you to prove it by posting something useful. Instead we have a classic case of a pedestrian lawyer out of her depth.

Demo Dick

I will not get into any kind of discussion with you about this so don't try.

I think what you just said above was totally uncalled for. I don't appreciate it, I don't like it.

How old are you again, 12?

[DemoDick]

I will not get into any kind of discussion with you about this so don't try.

I think what you just said above was totally uncalled for. I don't appreciate it, I don't like it.

How old are you again, 12?

Thanks for your input. My post was not directed to you, as did you try to hand out 100% incorrect information as if you had expert knowledge. And I was being blunt, not immature.

Giving out bad advice when you are unqualified to do so that can get good people put in jail is just plain stupid. There is no other way to describe it.

Demo Dick

[amazincc]

HEY!!!

Let's all be pissed off at the little smurf who lives in the house behind me.

And YAY! for the dog who won't go through an agility tunnel, but jumped through a window screen...

All this PP talk is really a mute point... Sepp wasn't "trained" for it, and neither am I. We're both okay, and we appreciate everyones input and opinion.

I'm starting to be sorry that I even brought this up - I sure didn't expect it to start a fight on the forum or turn nasty among other members...

[DemoDick]

HEY!!!

Let's all be pissed off at the little smurf who lives in the house behind me.

And YAY! for the dog who won't go through an agility tunnel, but jumped through a window screen...

All this PP talk is really a mute point... Sepp wasn't "trained" for it, and neither am I. We're both okay, and we appreciate everyones input and opinion.

I'm starting to be sorry that I even brought this up - I sure didn't expect it to start a fight on the forum or turn nasty among other members...

What the dog is trained to do is irrelevant in this situation. The only relevant thing is did you have a right to be where you were, doing what you were doing, and did you act in a reasonable manner? That's it. End of story. You're all set, and I would argue that you would have likely been all set even if a bite occurred. You would actually have standing to sue HIM civilly if you suffered any kind of trauma related stress brought on by his actions.

Here is an excellent link to get started for those who wish to research how the courts view the use of force, both civilly and criminally. It is only an overview and should not be considered a comprehensive resource, but it does a good job of summarizing:

http://www.useofforce.us/

Demo Dick

[amazincc]

I love you, Demo...

... and Katrina

... and Missy.







Thanks for the link... gonna go read now.

[cheekymunkee]

Yet another reason for me to consider relocating.

Demo Dick

Come on down! DPD is hiring, but unfortunately you lost out on the $10,000 recruiting bonus. Now you get to get shot at for basically free.

There was a guy in Houston last year who shot 2 guys that were in the STREET. One died, one lived. The old man faced no charges of any kind because he felt threatened by them. They had been trying to break into houses on the block. There is no 'blanket' law that would cover something like this. it is all dependant upon the circumstances and the laws of the area you are in. What I can do here in this state is not the same as what another can do in another state. Here, I can blow your ass off for knocking on my door. Not so in other areas of the country

[GregMK9]

Ok, I'm very confused here? I read all the posts so I wouldn't miss anything. Where did this guy break the law? He came, he knocked, he asked to borrow money. He was told no, he was leaving, regardless of being loud (not a crime) when the dog broke out of where he was, ran to the guy, guy turned and faced the dog and froze ( I'm assuming out of fear). So where is it this guy deserved to get bit? Seems more like a liability suit to me.
A personal protection dog is NOT a police dog and therefore can not (in the state of Md.) bite anyone from behind while posing no immediate threat. Just being in your yard is not a good enough reason for a dog to bite someone. If the dog was going to bite then he should have done so from the very beginning when the guy was at the door being loud. Not when he was leaving.
The dog didn't recall because he was overloaded in drive and that's fine this time. But keep in mind a dangerous dog is not just limited to a dog that bites. If he would have knocked the guy over and the guy broke an arm. Sepp is now a dangerous dog even if he/ she had the helicopter butt going, atleast in Anne Arundal County, Md.
As far as Katrina and her credentials, she knows a lot more then people want to give her credit for, that's why I have NO problems letting her work with my dog handler teams.

[amazincc]

If the dog was going to bite then he should have done so from the very beginning when the guy was at the door being loud.

I confined Sepp to the bed room before I opened the door, actually.

But, yup... you and the Concord PD are in agreement... no crime was committed, and Sepp most definitely would've been declared dangerous just by showing "aggression", no bite needed to have him hauled off to the pound.

And I most definitely give credit when credit is due.