Buddy is ONE..he needs help

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Postby jnreem » July 21st, 2009, 10:49 pm

So Buddy turned 1 on July 1st and he is much better than he was, not jumping on people coming into the house, coming when I call him,etc. The only problem that drives me crazy is when I take him on walks, he pulls and not all the time but most of the time. And it's 20 times worse when he sees or hears another dog. Today for example, there is a dog who has a doggie door and electric fence so whenever we walk by he comes out and starts barking like crazy. I always walk on the other side of the street and try to avoid walking by the house in general but It took everything I had to hold Buddy back, he has a very short lead but I ended up grabbing the top of his harness to get him going and not trying to run over to the dog, he gets his mowhawk and freaks out. Beta on the other hand walks right next to me, no pulling and looks at Buddy like he is an idiot while he freaks out lol. I don't know if it's because he only has interaction with Beta and a couple other dogs and needs more or if he needs to be walked more or what. I don't know what to do, he's fine till he sees another animal then he loses his brain. :crazy2:
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Postby katiek0417 » July 22nd, 2009, 12:09 am

I would honestly work on a focus command. I'd work on getting him to watch you...then, watch you while walking (an attention heel). Do it with no distraction at first...then move it up to having some distraction, but with you standing still and having him look at you...

I'll talk to you more about it tomorrow when I see you - I mean, I'll be there long enough with you! lol
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

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Postby kera09 » July 23rd, 2009, 5:55 pm

have you tried the choke/prong collar? i had to get one for ava, she was awful on walks, now shes an angel :dance:
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Postby jnreem » July 23rd, 2009, 6:29 pm

not yet, thats what katrina had talked to me about but they always looked so scarey. I will give it a try. Thanks
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Postby amazincc » July 23rd, 2009, 6:34 pm

jnreem wrote:not yet, thats what katrina had talked to me about but they always looked so scarey. I will give it a try. Thanks



They're only scary if they're not fitted/used right... any equipment is, really. :)

Have you ever tried a harness?
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Postby kera09 » July 23rd, 2009, 6:35 pm

i was hesitant on it at first too. but it works so if it means a miserable terrible walk or a happy go lucky walk....its worth it! trust me!
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Postby katiek0417 » July 23rd, 2009, 8:27 pm

kera09 wrote:i was hesitant on it at first too. but it works so if it means a miserable terrible walk or a happy go lucky walk....its worth it! trust me!


I spoke to her about them yesterday...and I think I'm going to try to meet up with her to show her how to properly fit and use one...it sounds like Buddy is pretty sensitive, so I think he'll respond very well...and she already uses a clicker with him, so I think she'll get the hang of it easily!
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

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Postby amazincc » July 23rd, 2009, 8:35 pm

katiek0417 wrote:I spoke to her about them yesterday...and I think I'm going to try to meet up with her to show her how to properly fit and use one...it sounds like Buddy is pretty sensitive, so I think he'll respond very well...and she already uses a clicker with him, so I think she'll get the hang of it easily!


So, how would that work... using a prong AND a clicker at the same time? Correct w/the collar and click/treat for walking nicely?
I thought the "reward' to the dog would be no pinching of the collar. :?
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Postby katiek0417 » July 23rd, 2009, 8:48 pm

amazincc wrote:
katiek0417 wrote:I spoke to her about them yesterday...and I think I'm going to try to meet up with her to show her how to properly fit and use one...it sounds like Buddy is pretty sensitive, so I think he'll respond very well...and she already uses a clicker with him, so I think she'll get the hang of it easily!


So, how would that work... using a prong AND a clicker at the same time? Correct w/the collar and click/treat for walking nicely?
I thought the "reward' to the dog would be no pinching of the collar. :?


OH NO!

If the reward is no pinching, then it's just negative reinforcement (the removal of something bad to increase behavior)...however, in this case, positive reinforcement works much better...the giving of something good to increase behavior.

So, the dog get positively punished (giving something bad to decrease behavior) for pulling...and the positive punishment comes in the form of the prong collar correction. So, the dog starts to learn that pulling is the wrong thing to do.

However, as soon as he stops pulling, he should get something really good so that the dog knows that he's doing something right.

So, for example, with my dogs...if they look away (in the heel) they get a prong collar correction...as soon as they look up at me, they get the tug to play with. So, my dogs begin to distinguish between doing what was wrong (looking away and getting corrected) and doing what's right (looking at me and getting the tug)...

I always immediately follow corrections with positive reinforcement...especially to start...as my dogs get more advanced I may not reward immediately...I may make them watch me longer before getting the reward (as opposed to rewarding as soon as they look up at me)...

But, any type of correction should be followed by positive reinforcement!
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

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Postby amazincc » July 23rd, 2009, 8:54 pm

So the click/treat is the reward... instead of maybe saying "good boy" or whatever?
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Postby katiek0417 » July 23rd, 2009, 9:00 pm

amazincc wrote:So the click/treat is the reward... instead of maybe saying "good boy" or whatever?


Yep...you want to use something the dog will get excited for...now, for dogs that get really excited with pets and praise, you can use that...but I prefer something much more appealing...

Now, just a note, remember that the click is really just the marker telling the dog it's doing the right thing...the reward is actually the treat....For me, I don't use the click, I use a verbal marker (good or yes) with the reward.

That being said, simple praise like "good boy" may make a dog happy...but getting food (or a toy, or whatever) will make them extra happy...remember, you need to make it VERY clear to the dog the difference between right and wrong!
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

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Postby amazincc » July 23rd, 2009, 9:01 pm

Right... got it. :)
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Postby pitbullmamaliz » July 23rd, 2009, 9:08 pm

I've been doing a lot of reading about clicker training, and everything I've been reading said the clicker should not be paired with a prong or anything corrective like that. The whole point of the clicker (from what I've read) is that eventually the click actually releases "feel-good" chemicals in the dog's brain. If you use the clicker with a prong, then you're negating the clicker.

Just what I've read. :wink:
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Postby TheRedQueen » July 23rd, 2009, 9:16 pm

pitbullmamaliz wrote:I've been doing a lot of reading about clicker training, and everything I've been reading said the clicker should not be paired with a prong or anything corrective like that. The whole point of the clicker (from what I've read) is that eventually the click actually releases "feel-good" chemicals in the dog's brain. If you use the clicker with a prong, then you're negating the clicker.

Just what I've read. :wink:


Yup, that's why there is a difference between "Training with a clicker" and "Clicker training". :dance:
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Postby amazincc » July 23rd, 2009, 9:54 pm

pitbullmamaliz wrote:I've been doing a lot of reading about clicker training, and everything I've been reading said the clicker should not be paired with a prong or anything corrective like that. The whole point of the clicker (from what I've read) is that eventually the click actually releases "feel-good" chemicals in the dog's brain. If you use the clicker with a prong, then you're negating the clicker.


I thought that, too... that's why I asked.
Flat collar/clicker would be ideal then... or does it depend on how much clicker training the dog already has?
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Postby katiek0417 » July 23rd, 2009, 9:58 pm

pitbullmamaliz wrote:I've been doing a lot of reading about clicker training, and everything I've been reading said the clicker should not be paired with a prong or anything corrective like that. The whole point of the clicker (from what I've read) is that eventually the click actually releases "feel-good" chemicals in the dog's brain. If you use the clicker with a prong, then you're negating the clicker.

Just what I've read. :wink:


I'd be interested in seeing that...Clicker training first, and foremost, starts with classical conditioning...the association of two stimuli. So, the dog associates the click with something good...

That being said, from a human research standpoint, they've done fMRI scans of people both before an after classical conditioning, and they have found that the same areas of the brain are activated when presented with the unconditioned stimulus (i.e., food) and when only presented with a conditioned stimulus (if we're talking about dogs, it would be the click), with the response (i.e., salivation) being the same. The only difference is that the cerebellum is also activated when presented with only the conditioned stimulus, and the cerebellum has been implicated in other types of learning as well.

So, from that, the classically conditioned response to the click is the same as it would be to the food alone (again, with the added activation of the cerebellum)....

And people have been using food for years with prong collar corrections.... :?

Granted, dogs aren't humans, but the principles of basic brain anatomy/workings are the same...
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

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Postby amazincc » July 23rd, 2009, 10:03 pm

I thought the "click" actually meant to signal to the dog that - YES! you're doing what I want... - so a correction WOULDN'T be needed? And the treat is to re-enforce the click... :|

I've never done choke/prong AND clicker at the same time, so I have no personal experience w/it.
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Postby katiek0417 » July 23rd, 2009, 10:11 pm

amazincc wrote:I thought the "click" actually meant to signal to the dog that - YES! you're doing what I want... - so a correction WOULDN'T be needed? And the treat is to re-enforce the click... :|

I've never done choke/prong AND clicker at the same time, so I have no personal experience w/it.


The click does mean that...but many people use food the same way...as well as verbal markers :?

It tells them when they're doing the right thing...but it really doesn't communicate when they're doing the wrong thing...

The click is merely to say you've done a good thing...but because you start clicker training by pairing it with food, you're also classically conditioning the dog to understand that the click is a good thing...do you get what I'm saying?

ETA: it starts with classical conditioning but progresses so that the click is used for operant conditioning (reward, punishment, etc)...

Personally, I like verbal markers as opposed to the clicker...but that's because I am really not coordinated enough to have a leash, food, and clicker...
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

Katrina
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Postby katiek0417 » July 23rd, 2009, 10:21 pm

Oh, and one more thing...while people use a verbal marker like yes to indicate to the dog it's doing something right...

people use the verbal marker of no to indicate they are doing something wrong...and one way to train what no means is by pairing it with a correction (like you pair yes/click with food)...
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

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Postby amazincc » July 23rd, 2009, 10:26 pm

katiek0417 wrote:The click does mean that...but many people use food the same way...as well as verbal markers :?

It tells them when they're doing the right thing...but it really doesn't communicate when they're doing the wrong thing...

The click is merely to say you've done a good thing...but because you start clicker training by pairing it with food, you're also classically conditioning the dog to understand that the click is a good thing...do you get what I'm saying?



I do... and I don't. :oops:

When I tried to teach Sepp not to drag me down the street while going for a walk, I used the click/treat when he walked nicely next to me. When he started pulling, I just stopped walking... "he corrected himself" a little bit, w/the flat collar on, simply because I didn't follow him. I made him come and sit next to me, then we'd try again. Granted - it can take a little longer and you need patience (God, do you EVER... :rolleyes2: lol), but the final result happens to be the same.
In the beginning I did a lot of standing like a damned lamp post on the sidewalk every few seconds, but he's the first dog I've taught this way... and it worked for us. :dance:

We also started when he was way smaller/younger... I don't know if I would want to start out w/70-pounds of unruly dog NOW. :wink:
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