Using an e-collar to teach behavior?

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Postby katiek0417 » May 16th, 2009, 1:22 am

mnp13 wrote:I've seen this method used with a prong, and I think it stops the dog from thinking. The dog learns that the pain stops when they are in heel position (for example), their confusion/guessing ends when they are in that position. They have successfully guessed where they belong, but they don't necessarily learn the behavior per say. Then later, when they are uncomfortable with a situation they revert to the safe zone - heel position.

I watched someone teach a beautiful heel using this method, and once she figured out that the corrections stopped when she was in the correct position she was happy and prancey... until it was time to teach stay. She spent a TON of time getting pounded on because she had already learned that the safest place in the world was prancing away next to dad's left hip. All of a sudden "safe" was 2 feet away, then 3 feet away, etc. She never learned to concept heel, she just learned to escape pain - so making her grasp "stay" was painful to watch, let alone for her to learn.



I don't know if I totally agree with this....I've seen dogs taught heel with this method, and they'll come to heel when the handler is laying down, standing up, walking backwards, side-to-side, etc...and they have a gorgeous stay as well, and teaching stay wasn't an issue...in fact, they have a flawless stay...it barely looks like the dog is breathing...

I get what you're saying, but I think a lot depends on the person using the method. Michelle, I know you've seen Asja's obedience (granted it's been a while), but she has some of the most beautiful obedience I've seen...well, Greg's first year showing her, he showed against Tim Smith and his dog, Moose. Moose scored higher in the obedience, and Tim uses the e-collar to train behaviors.

Our old decoy, Jeff, trained his dog, Isis using Pat Nolan's method...and again, she's got some gorgeous obedience.

So, I really just think a lot depends on who is using the method. If you're proficient in the use (just like with any method), then it'll work for you...
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Postby katiek0417 » May 16th, 2009, 8:51 am

And, I actually wanted to add one more thing to the notion that the dog is afraid to leave the side of the handler....As far as Pat Nolan goes...he's a trainer of field labs...dogs that HAVE to work 300 yards away from the handler...

I agree that it happens where the dog is afraid to leave the handler's side...but I don't agree that it happens all the time.

I also wanted to remind you that the e-collar that Pat uses are dogtras...they have increments ranging from 1-127...he uses a VERY low level in this method of training (like in high single digits, or low teens).

With any method, I think you should become proficient with the theory behind the method, as well as method itself! In other words, don't try this on your own without guidance!
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

Katrina
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Nisha CGC, PDC, PSA TC, PSA 1 - Crazy Malinois
Drusilla SLUT- Pet
Nemo - Dual-Purpose Narcotics
Cy TC, PSA 1, PSA 2, 2009 PSA Level 3 National Champion
Axo - Psycho Puppy
Rocky - RIP My Baby Boy
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Postby lellis34 » May 21st, 2009, 8:55 am

I just wanted to pop in here because I'm considering doing some work with a trainer who uses a remote collar. Reading everyone's thoughts/comments here is very insightful and appreciated. Just another reason why I like this board. Even though everyone may not agree, the debate is healthy and informative. THANKS!!

Now, question :D When I met with the trainer last night I had the opportunity to feel the "prompt" from the remote collars he uses. It wasn't a shock or anything sharp to me - just a small vibration. Does a dog feel this differently than a human? Where I felt it as a smooth vibration would they feel it as pain? Because honestly I was thinking if it came in a larger version I could use one as a back massager.

Another question - for those of you who use or have used remote collars - do your dogs perform off collar as well?
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Postby mnp13 » May 21st, 2009, 12:50 pm

lellis34 wrote:Another question - for those of you who use or have used remote collars - do your dogs perform off collar as well?


Like any training collar, you have to be careful not to make them collar smart. If they are not - and after they are trained of course - they are usually as reliable with it on as with it off.
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Postby katiek0417 » May 21st, 2009, 3:01 pm

lellis34 wrote:Another question - for those of you who use or have used remote collars - do your dogs perform off collar as well?


It's hard to know what your dog is feeling, but I will tell you that you I can tell the difference with my dogs in regards to the level that I use. If I use a low level, like I do with negative reinforcement, you don't see any type of blink or head turn or anything...if I use a high level, like I do for a hard positive punishment correction, then you definitely see a response out of the dog.

As far as my dogs and e-collars....they definitely perform off-leash...if you look under sports, you'll see vids that I posted of Cy from Nationals. He is naked on the field...I use an e-collar.
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

Katrina
Sacha CGC - Dumb Lab
Nisha CGC, PDC, PSA TC, PSA 1 - Crazy Malinois
Drusilla SLUT- Pet
Nemo - Dual-Purpose Narcotics
Cy TC, PSA 1, PSA 2, 2009 PSA Level 3 National Champion
Axo - Psycho Puppy
Rocky - RIP My Baby Boy
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