mnp13 wrote:I've seen this method used with a prong, and I think it stops the dog from thinking. The dog learns that the pain stops when they are in heel position (for example), their confusion/guessing ends when they are in that position. They have successfully guessed where they belong, but they don't necessarily learn the behavior per say. Then later, when they are uncomfortable with a situation they revert to the safe zone - heel position.
I watched someone teach a beautiful heel using this method, and once she figured out that the corrections stopped when she was in the correct position she was happy and prancey... until it was time to teach stay. She spent a TON of time getting pounded on because she had already learned that the safest place in the world was prancing away next to dad's left hip. All of a sudden "safe" was 2 feet away, then 3 feet away, etc. She never learned to concept heel, she just learned to escape pain - so making her grasp "stay" was painful to watch, let alone for her to learn.
I don't know if I totally agree with this....I've seen dogs taught heel with this method, and they'll come to heel when the handler is laying down, standing up, walking backwards, side-to-side, etc...and they have a gorgeous stay as well, and teaching stay wasn't an issue...in fact, they have a flawless stay...it barely looks like the dog is breathing...
I get what you're saying, but I think a lot depends on the person using the method. Michelle, I know you've seen Asja's obedience (granted it's been a while), but she has some of the most beautiful obedience I've seen...well, Greg's first year showing her, he showed against Tim Smith and his dog, Moose. Moose scored higher in the obedience, and Tim uses the e-collar to train behaviors.
Our old decoy, Jeff, trained his dog, Isis using Pat Nolan's method...and again, she's got some gorgeous obedience.
So, I really just think a lot depends on who is using the method. If you're proficient in the use (just like with any method), then it'll work for you...