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Postby amazincc » May 6th, 2009, 1:35 pm

The Sepp Monster is almost ten months old... could he be going through puberty??? :rolleyes2: :nono:

He has developed selective hearing. Especially regarding a reliable "come"... sometimes he does, most times he doesn't. Treats don't seem to make a difference, neither does a "happy dance' when he DOES decide to listen, and I find myself chasing him through the yard on a nightly basis.
Ah... long lead, you say? Yep, tried that. After two leather leads and four nylon ones met their death because he chewed them apart, I am at a loss. Obviously a chain would solve that dilemma, but I haven't been able to find one that I deem safe enough to leave on him in the yard or in the house.
Any ideas?

The other thing is the constant, VERY enthusiastic licking when he's being petted. I think Sarah can attest to that. She only met him once, but I'm pretty sure he drenched her in slobber.
He's just not able to contain himself.
I've tried pretty much everything I can think of to get him to be calmer, but - again - I'm at a loss.
Ignoring his behavior seems to make it worse, since he will try to get your attention even more... w/head butting, trying to climb on your lap, licking your face/hands/etc... sometimes even excitement-peeing on your feet. :|

So... is it just a phase that I have to ride out... or does anyone have some insights/concrete tips for us?
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Postby Malli » May 6th, 2009, 3:13 pm

as far as the come, well, I sympathize. I really f*ed that up when Oscar was little, so for the past few months we have gone right back to basics on offleash stuff(since I'm sick of having a dog who can't be off at all... Here is what we do (though my issues aren't yard based, they're on walks) : He is only allowed off when I'm about 99.9% sure he can handle the surrounding distractions, and only when I can see far enough to have time to put him back on leash if necessary. He also gets a reward for every positive decision he makes, be it hustling up from a smell he found when I call, to slowing down when he's burning off ahead. I've lowered my expectations a ton in this department, little things have become big :)

I'd expect that if you keep being consistent and rewarding him, he'll come around :|

What about a shorter long line made out of lighter, cheaper rope?

As far as the excitement stuff, I'd just get up and walk away when he gets too hyped :|
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Postby katiek0417 » May 6th, 2009, 3:33 pm

Malli, those are excellent suggestions!

Christine...also, have you tried running away from him to get him to come to you? And, yes, he probably is just testing the limits right now. They also have the cable type tie outs that you may consider...In all reality, I simply wouldn't allow him off-leash right now. He needs to learn that he has to come to you EACH and EVERY time you call him NO MATTER WHAT. Also, try to go back to basics: use jackpot rewards again.

For the licking, I'd simply start ignoring him if he starts doing it...the same way you'd use negative punishment to get a dog not to jump on you (turn your back when the dog jumps, only pet when the dog sits)...does that make sense?

Also, some dogs just lick a lot. It is a sign of submission...so, if Sepp is incredibly submissive, that MAY be why he's licking so much...My Dutchie never stops licking...and we kinda get over it b/c we've tried to get her to stop...but she's just so submissive that she won't...
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

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Postby amazincc » May 6th, 2009, 4:20 pm

Yeah, well... thanks for the responses... :)

I did try a long lead made out of cheaper rope, and he promptly dismembered it... hence I went to leather, thinking it was stronger. :wink:

It's almost as if Sepp has finally discovered/realized that he can exist independently of me, because he used to follow me obsessively and closely ALL the time. If I stopped fast he would step on my heel or bump his head into my leg.
I am/was also always very careful not to associate the "come" command w/anything negative... and I have tried the 'running away" method... he will follow me, but stay just two steps out of reach, the little bogger. :rolleyes2:
He will do a pretty good "sit-stay" though, so that's what I've been using to catch him at 3 in the morning... and I do reward him for that.
Or I go in the house and shut the door... and he will come up, bark, and I let him in. Duh! He trained me well, didn't he? lol
I have never had to deal w/this before... both Mick and Daisy never challenged me that way.
And if I don't let him off-leash - how exactly will he learn to come reliably? I don't get that part. :oops:

About the licking... yes, he is VERY submissive and I do ignore him... but the second he thinks I'm (or anyone else is) paying attention to him he goes wild. I CAN live w/that though. :dance:

What about chucking the "come", and starting over w/"here', or something like that??? On-leash at first??? And how do I make it more effective this time?
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Postby katiek0417 » May 6th, 2009, 4:38 pm

Retraining is definitely an idea...

I know Sarah is moving...but if she, or someone else, might be willing to help a bit...do you use food or toys? It doesn't matter...they'll both work for this method...but have someone hold his collar...let him sniff the food (or see the toy)...and get him all excited over it...then run away...as you're running away, call him...and turn around towards him when he gets halfway to you....

You have to use a really happy voice and a lot of energy when you do this...but I love this method to teach a nice, fast come command...

I can try to get some video of the method if you'd like...
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

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Postby amazincc » May 6th, 2009, 4:48 pm

katiek0417 wrote:Retraining is definitely an idea...

I know Sarah is moving...but if she, or someone else, might be willing to help a bit...do you use food or toys? It doesn't matter...they'll both work for this method...but have someone hold his collar...let him sniff the food (or see the toy)...and get him all excited over it...then run away...as you're running away, call him...and turn around towards him when he gets halfway to you....

You have to use a really happy voice and a lot of energy when you do this...but I love this method to teach a nice, fast come command...

I can try to get some video of the method if you'd like...


I do know what you mean... that's how I taught him when I first got him.
The problem is that a treat (even hot dogs :shock: ) or a toy is not half as rewarding as tap-dancing around me, just out of reach, when I want him to come now.
I'm also sure he knows how frustrating it's becoming for me, through my body language alone... even when I use my *happy* voice.
I sort of anticipate by now that he won't listen, so it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, you know?

I figured that "here' would be a good new start for both of us. :?

Oh... and if there's no-one to practice with - should I tie him to the fence, on a long lead??? And make him sit, and then give the "here" command?

God, I feel stupid asking questions about something so basic. :oops: lol
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Postby Hundilein » May 6th, 2009, 7:26 pm

Dangit! I wish I had time to come and help you with this before I have to leave. I love playing recall games.

One thing I do if I don't have anyone to practice with is the "drop the cookie and run" game. Throw a treat away from you, making sure he sees it so he'll go for it, and then run away while he's eating. When he turns to see what you're doing, call him to come. Click and treat, or just treat, when he gets to you and then throw another treat to get him to go away from you. This just works on getting him moving in your direction.

Another thing I've done with Renee that has worked wonders is to use the opportunity to go sniff again as part of the reward. I take her on a long line to a field near my house and let her "go sniff". When I feel like I have a fighting chance of her listening, I call her, starting from only a few feet away and moving away from her as I call. When she gets to me, I click and treat and immediately send her to go sniff again. If she won't take the treat, I just send her to go sniff. If the environment is too interesting, I just let her wander and click and treat any glances in my direction. If she doesn't want treats, I don't care, I just toss them towards her and then ignore her again. I did this in agility class one night when we were working outside and after a couple of minutes I couldn't get rid of her. This is something we've really struggled with, and it's taken a long time to get to the point where I can even trust her on a long line in a big open space, but she's getting better. And I now have a very potent reinforcer on cue. She knows if I tell her "go sniff" that she's allowed to explore. It's also an easy way to give her a break if I'm working with her and want a minute to think about what I'm going to do next.

Another game I play independently of recall training at first is "gotcha!" or "gimme that collar". I just call out "gotcha!" in a happy voice, then grab the collar with one hand as I treat with the other. Eventually, I add this to the end of the recall for my pet dog classes. The idea is to teach the dog that hands reaching towards him and having his collar grabbed are really great things.

Another trick I've used with dogs who like to dance around out of reach is to squat down and feed them treats right at my feet without trying to touch them at all. If they want the treats, they've got to come close to me, but I take the pressure off by not reaching for them. I do this several times until they get comfortable and figure out that it's a new "game". Then I slowly add in petting and reaching towards the collar, and eventually holding the collar.

And you probably know this, but make sure you practice recalls at times when you don't have to get him in the house immediately. Call him and then send him back to play again several times before you bring him in so he doesn't see the recall as ending all the fun.

I hope this helps.
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Postby amazincc » May 6th, 2009, 7:48 pm

Hundilein wrote:
And you probably know this, but make sure you practice recalls at times when you don't have to get him in the house immediately. Call him and then send him back to play again several times before you bring him in so he doesn't see the recall as ending all the fun.


I do know this (in theory, anyway), but hadn't thought of it in those exact terms or pertaining to our situation :doh: ... excellent, excellent point! Thanks, Sarah. :wink:
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Postby katiek0417 » May 6th, 2009, 8:53 pm

Yep, excellent point...and I don't like to use obedience prior to doing recalls...

Also, when Seppel comes, is he supposed to do something? For example, when I teach my dogs a recall, I teach them to sit in front (here) or come to heel (heel)...
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

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Postby amazincc » May 6th, 2009, 9:10 pm

katiek0417 wrote:
Also, when Seppel comes, is he supposed to do something? For example, when I teach my dogs a recall, I teach them to sit in front (here) or come to heel (heel)...


He used to come and sit next to my right leg... and then get a treat. Now I'm lucky if he quickly darts in the house when he finally does decide to listen. :|

So... there should be a difference in commands, actually? That makes sense.

Bah... whenever I *think* I know something... the dog, for sure, will remind me that I really don't... lol
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Postby katiek0417 » May 6th, 2009, 9:17 pm

Christine, you know so much more than most :hug3:

Technically, I have three different come commands:

Here = come to me as fast as you can, and sit in front of me
Fulligan = come to me as fast as you can, but come immediately to heel (do not pass go, and do not collect $200 lol)
Come on = just come to me

Here and Fulligan also have the following meaning = you MUST come to me ASAP or there will be serious consequences. You DO NOT have a choice....

"come on" is much more lenient...
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

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Postby amazincc » May 6th, 2009, 9:51 pm

katiek0417 wrote:Come on = just come to me

Here and Fulligan also have the following meaning = you MUST come to me ASAP or there will be serious consequences. You DO NOT have a choice....


Aaahhh... so, maybe my question should've been - what should the consequences be since Sepp definitely knows what "come" means?
I have no problem w/him following commands in the house, but he certainly tests me when he knows that he can "get away" with it, literally... my yard is pretty big.
And even though it's fenced in... people ALWAYS leave the gate open. Of course I always check before I let the dogs out, but still - we live right on a corner, traffic can be heavy at times.

I really need us to be rock-solid w/this command especially... obviously it could be a lifesaver, you know?
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Postby katiek0417 » May 6th, 2009, 9:58 pm

I just start taking my dog always out on leash...it doesn't get any freedom from me...EVER! Not until that recall is 110%...

I start with a short leash...I've gone as long as 50' leashes...and I just reel the dog in...there's never a choice...

ETA...keep in mind, it REALLY does sound like he's being a stubborn teenager
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

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Postby babyreba » May 6th, 2009, 10:35 pm

just to give you the light at the end of the tunnel you may need, yes, this age sucks and it won't last forever!

i remember when tucker was anywhere from 8 to 12 months old, there were times when he almost made me cry he was so difficult. and doc hasn't even managed to make me that crazy!

he was just a really willful pup, and i felt like there were times when we were playing the "wear down" game to see who would wear down first. fortunately, i won!

but he is now the easiest dog ever. it did take work, but really, the doggy adolescence can be rough!
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Postby Hundilein » May 6th, 2009, 11:18 pm

You may want to think about teaching an emergency recall with a different word than your everyday, run of the mill sort of recall. By that I mean as Katrina was saying, get to me as fast as you can, right NOW, no messing around. For my dogs, the emergency word is "puppies!". I know another trainer who uses "cookie". I heavily reinforced this word with super great stuff and only use it when I have to (hence the emergency part). And there is always a huge party when the dogs get to me when I use this word.

"Come" is my everyday recall word, and I do want the dogs to come to me when I use it, but I don't mind if they finish what they're doing quickly and then come. When I know they won't come (for instance when Renee is after a squirrel in the yard), I yell lots of other things, but not either of my recall words :wink:

Another thing to think about, you may need to split the recall into smaller chunks in new or more difficult situations. Clicker trainers (and maybe other trainers as well) refer to "lumpers" vs. "splitters". Most people tend to be "lumpers", ie they lump behaviors into big chunks, rather than splitting them into little pieces that a dog is more likely able to accomplish. Many times splitting a behavior into tiny pieces and working on each piece makes it much easier for the dog, and for you. When I really started to work on Renee's general lack of attention as well as her recall, I thought about how to split it. I figured the first step towards a recall is being able to get the dog's attention, so I took her to new places and just clicked and treated for glances in my direction at first. I knew I couldn't get her to choose to come to me in those situations, so I didn't even try at first. I took what I could get, which was occasional glances in my direction. Gradually, I was able to shape that into longer attention, and eventually into a recall, again with the opportunity to "go sniff" as part of the reward.

Another thought for the gate thing. An emergency down can sometimes be more useful than an emergency recall. No less difficult to teach (I just started working on this with my two recently), but can come in very handy when the dog runs across the road and you don't want him running back across it to get to you. Also, some dogs do better with being asked to down in place and stay there rather than turning their attention away from the distraction and back to you.

Sorry this is so random and disorganized, I've got a lot running through my head right now with packing.
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Postby amazincc » May 6th, 2009, 11:19 pm

katiek0417 wrote:I just start taking my dog always out on leash...it doesn't get any freedom from me...EVER! Not until that recall is 110%...

I start with a short leash...I've gone as long as 50' leashes...and I just reel the dog in...there's never a choice...

ETA...keep in mind, it REALLY does sound like he's being a stubborn teenager


Okay. I can do that. :)
But his "recall" on-leash is great. He knows he doesn't have a choice but to come. I never even have to tuck very hard. He's not stupid... quite the opposite, actually. lol

I will start keeping him on-leash in the yard for a while, and slowly work back up to off-leash.
I guess I don't really understand HOW to teach a solid recall while he is leashed when I want him to come when he's not leashed???

I'm SO hoping it's just a phase. lol
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Postby katiek0417 » May 6th, 2009, 11:21 pm

amazincc wrote:
katiek0417 wrote:I just start taking my dog always out on leash...it doesn't get any freedom from me...EVER! Not until that recall is 110%...

I start with a short leash...I've gone as long as 50' leashes...and I just reel the dog in...there's never a choice...

ETA...keep in mind, it REALLY does sound like he's being a stubborn teenager


Okay. I can do that. :)
But his "recall" on-leash is great. He knows he doesn't have a choice but to come. I never even have to tuck very hard. He's not stupid... quite the opposite, actually. lol

I will start keeping him on-leash in the yard for a while, and slowly work back up to off-leash.
I guess I don't really understand HOW to teach a solid recall while he is leashed when I want him to come when he's not leashed???

I'm SO hoping it's just a phase. lol


That's why you use longer lines :wink: Remember, dogs are creatures of habit...if you make them come to you from DIFFERENT distances EVERY time...then they don't know any better!
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

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Postby amazincc » May 6th, 2009, 11:26 pm

katiek0417 wrote:
That's why you use longer lines :wink: Remember, dogs are creatures of habit...if you make them come to you from DIFFERENT distances EVERY time...then they don't know any better!


I DO, Katrina... I swear. :|
And he comes... every time. I have a really thin long line that I use, you can hardly see it in the grass.

He knows whether it's on him or not, and he acts accordingly. I know how this sounds... I'm being outsmarted by a ten-months old puppy. :oops:
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Postby amazincc » May 6th, 2009, 11:34 pm

Thanks, Sarah... :)

I don't know how to split a simple "come" into smaller chunks?
His attention is pretty much always on me, and he is enthusiastic about it.
He just chooses not to follow directions... but he gives damned good eye contact and watches me like a hawk, even then. W/a big fat grin on his face. lol

Somehow, somewhere, I screwed up and made not coming a great new game.

But I think I will try to teach him an emergency heel or down... that is a great idea. :wink:
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Postby BigDogBuford » May 7th, 2009, 12:01 am

Sep reminds me of when my brother was 13 and realized for the first time he was taller than mom. There was quite a, uh..........discussion about his attitude at the time. :wink:
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