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This forum is all about training and behavior. Everything from potty training to working titles!

Postby BritneyP » April 1st, 2009, 12:49 pm

SisMorphine wrote:Oh and Dog_Shrink I'm still interested in reading about the 10 week thing. Even if you don't have a link can you give the general idea behind it, as my learning has always said 7-8 weeks.


FWIW, that's not the first time I've ever heard that theory... it seems to be based off the idea that there are still things mom/siblings can be teaching them up until 10 weeks of age. I've actually heard of some breeders who don't like to let puppies go until 10 weeks.. :|
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Postby katiek0417 » April 1st, 2009, 1:08 pm

pitbullmamaliz wrote:
SisMorphine wrote:For me it isn't about collecting titles, it's about EARNING titles. I would much rather deal with the difficulties of training my own dog with whom I have a relationship with other than training (which, IME, slows down the training process), than to be handed a dog who has already been trained, that I just need to handle and/or clean up.


Very well said! :clap:


My last word on this, however, is that even with a trained dog, it's never fully trained...And as you clean up some problems, you often create others, that you then have to fix...

And, I may be taking this the wrong way - so maybe you weren't taking a personal shot at me, but Brit can attest to this as she saw me with Cy in march and april...yeah...he was a trained dog...but I can promise, I've worked EVERY day (except when I couldn't b/c of my knee) with this dog fixing problems that were there (i.e., he was so used to being told to do something, like sit, during a recall, that he would always stop or slow down in the middle when I recalled him...so, I couldn't really get him to do a perfect recall...OR the fact that if the field was set up a certain way, he'd call himself off - in fact, he wouldn't even go down field in that situation)...and I've taught him behaviors that he never knew (i.e., send away and stand) the same way I would teach them to a dog with no obedience...

In addition, there are often behaviors that you want, that the dog doesn't know...so you do have to train those behaviors...

I don't know if I would have been happy if he came to me perfect...I think a big part of the bond I have with him (e.g., people see us cuddling, and can't even believe I've only had him for a year and a half or that I haven't had him since he was a puppy) is because I work so hard with him, and he's had to learn to trust me...

I think that training with your dog is a bonding experience...

BritneyP wrote:
SisMorphine wrote:Oh and Dog_Shrink I'm still interested in reading about the 10 week thing. Even if you don't have a link can you give the general idea behind it, as my learning has always said 7-8 weeks.


FWIW, that's not the first time I've ever heard that theory... it seems to be based off the idea that there are still things mom/siblings can be teaching them up until 10 weeks of age. I've actually heard of some breeders who don't like to let puppies go until 10 weeks.. :|


I, too, have actually spoken to breeders that believe this...I don't know if there's anything published about when it's better...I know many stable dogs that left mom/littermates at 7-8 weeks...and I know others that left at 10 weeks...

I've always thought it was a bit weird...but...that's only based on what I do (7-8 weeks)
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Postby SisMorphine » April 1st, 2009, 3:54 pm

katiek0417 wrote:And, I may be taking this the wrong way - so maybe you weren't taking a personal shot at me . . .

NO! I definitely wasn't taking a personal shot at you!! I was just pointing out things that I've noticed over the past few years that at first shocked me (like I said, trainers sending dogs to other trainers to be trained) but that I eventually found to be the norm.

And also pointing out that I am obviously a total freak show because I can't feel a sense of accomplishment in my training of Blue because I let someone else hold his leash for 5 minutes. :bricks:
I'm like the little kid who gets pissed off when someone tries to help me tie my shoes because I want to do it all by myself. lol

katiek0417 wrote:
BritneyP wrote:FWIW, that's not the first time I've ever heard that theory... it seems to be based off the idea that there are still things mom/siblings can be teaching them up until 10 weeks of age. I've actually heard of some breeders who don't like to let puppies go until 10 weeks.. :|


I, too, have actually spoken to breeders that believe this...I don't know if there's anything published about when it's better...I know many stable dogs that left mom/littermates at 7-8 weeks...and I know others that left at 10 weeks...

I've always thought it was a bit weird...but...that's only based on what I do (7-8 weeks)

I'm definitely interested in seeing what the structure of learning is in this 10 week theory vs the 7-8 week theory that most of us are used to.
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Postby DemoDick » April 2nd, 2009, 6:30 am

...and I've taught him behaviors that he never knew (i.e., send away and stand) the same way I would teach them to a dog with no obedience...


Not to take anything away from what you have done, but there is a world of difference between teaching basic behaviors and tasks to an untrained dog vs. teaching new behaviors to a dog that already has a foundation or advanced training.

It's like teaching first graders how to read and do basic arithmetic...takes years. Compare that to teaching a book or math skills to high schoolers who already have a foundation in the mechanics of language and math. They know "how to learn". It is less complicated and faster, assuming of course that they didn't learn the mechanics incorrectly in the first place, which is often the case with dogs. Fixing existing problems that have been cemented in place by someone else is often harder than either, and is, in my experience why many trainers tend to recycle dogs until they find one that they take to a title.

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Postby katiek0417 » April 2nd, 2009, 2:35 pm

DemoDick wrote:
...and I've taught him behaviors that he never knew (i.e., send away and stand) the same way I would teach them to a dog with no obedience...


Not to take anything away from what you have done, but there is a world of difference between teaching basic behaviors and tasks to an untrained dog vs. teaching new behaviors to a dog that already has a foundation or advanced training.

It's like teaching first graders how to read and do basic arithmetic...takes years. Compare that to teaching a book or math skills to high schoolers who already have a foundation in the mechanics of language and math. They know "how to learn". It is less complicated and faster, assuming of course that they didn't learn the mechanics incorrectly in the first place, which is often the case with dogs. Fixing existing problems that have been cemented in place by someone else is often harder than either, and is, in my experience why many trainers tend to recycle dogs until they find one that they take to a title.

Demo Dick



I don't know that I agree with this...yes a dog might know HOW to learn...but you don't have opposing behaviors that prohibit the dog from learning these things...

For example...on a send away...you are teaching the dog to run away from you (then you down it)...for a dog that, all it's life, has been taught it can't leave your side, it can be a very hard task to understand...or...the stand...for a dog that all it's life has only known sit and down, if it doesn't understand what you're asking, it will revert to what it does know...and what it had always done safely. The traditional methods of teaching stand didn't work with Cy...if I tried to take a step forward with food as a lure, he'd down...and if I did get him to stand, if I didn't keep food in his face, he'd sit back down again...

Nisha learned the stand at the beginning of when I started to train her, and she picked it up in one session.

So, often, there is more work that goes into training a trained dog...I can promise you...Nisha was much easier than him...

And, while I would never just recycle him, when I bought him, I promised I would be his final owner...there were times when I considered retiring him because of how much work I was putting in with him...

Like I said, I had to fix a lot of things and that was just as hard as teaching the new behaviors...

It's like teaching first graders how to read and do basic arithmetic...takes years. Compare that to teaching a book or math skills to high schoolers who already have a foundation in the mechanics of language and math. They know "how to learn". It is less complicated and faster, assuming of course that they didn't learn the mechanics incorrectly in the first place, which is often the case with dogs.


Oh, and this...this isn't how learning theory works...if you go back to the original articles by Skinner, Watson, Kohler, etc, you'll find that behaviors are independent of each other in learning...learning one behavior does not make it easier to learn another behavior especially if the behaviors are unrelated. For example, take a pigeon in a Skinner box that you are trying to teach to press a lever to get food. At first, it's trial and error, but once the pigeon figures it out, he'll keep doing it...but if you want the pigeon to flap it's wings to get food, you have to start the whole process over...

The only case where it gets easier is in free shaping - which is much more akin to superstitious behaviors.
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Postby DemoDick » April 2nd, 2009, 8:51 pm

Actually, it sounds like you agree with me. To quote my own, dashing and fresh-smelling self:

Fixing existing problems that have been cemented in place by someone else is often harder than either, and is, in my experience why many trainers tend to recycle dogs until they find one that they take to a title.

Demo Dick


Hence your situation:

For example...on a send away...you are teaching the dog to run away from you (then you down it)...for a dog that, all it's life, has been taught it can't leave your side...Like I said, I had to fix a lot of things and that was just as hard as teaching the new behaviors...


You are dealing with a behavior that was taught in a manner that conflicts with what you now are asking the dog to do (another reason why I will never use escape training). That's harder than teaching it from scratch.

Oh, and this...this isn't how learning theory works...if you go back to the original articles by Skinner, Watson, Kohler, etc, you'll find that behaviors are independent of each other in learning...


Theory and application are two distinctly different spheres with regards to this discussion. I don't recall Burrhis Frederic Skinner titling a dog. Maybe if he did today's dog trainers would give him a little more respect. It has been my experience that working with a dog who has a sound understanding of how to learn is much easier than starting with raw material, unless of course the dog is a bag of nerves from having his brains scrambled with high-voltage or something. I understand and appreciate the academic side of things, but as a trained sociologist I also understand that what works on research papers doesn't always pan out when you put the players on the field and let them run around and bang into each other. There is an intangible, thoroughly unscientific bond that occurs between a good dog and handler team that I don't think can be replicated in sterile scientific research. But it's real.

Really, in the grand scheme of things, this debate is unimportant, esecially when I have a steak and the new Punisher movie waiting on me. :)

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Postby katiek0417 » April 2nd, 2009, 9:39 pm

DemoDick wrote:Actually, it sounds like you agree with me. To quote my own, dashing and fresh-smelling self:

Fixing existing problems that have been cemented in place by someone else is often harder than either, and is, in my experience why many trainers tend to recycle dogs until they find one that they take to a title.

Demo Dick


Hence your situation:

For example...on a send away...you are teaching the dog to run away from you (then you down it)...for a dog that, all it's life, has been taught it can't leave your side...Like I said, I had to fix a lot of things and that was just as hard as teaching the new behaviors...


You are dealing with a behavior that was taught in a manner that conflicts with what you now are asking the dog to do (another reason why I will never use escape training). That's harder than teaching it from scratch.

Oh, and this...this isn't how learning theory works...if you go back to the original articles by Skinner, Watson, Kohler, etc, you'll find that behaviors are independent of each other in learning...


Theory and application are two distinctly different spheres with regards to this discussion. I don't recall Burrhis Frederic Skinner titling a dog. Maybe if he did today's dog trainers would give him a little more respect. It has been my experience that working with a dog who has a sound understanding of how to learn is much easier than starting with raw material, unless of course the dog is a bag of nerves from having his brains scrambled with high-voltage or something. I understand and appreciate the academic side of things, but as a trained sociologist I also understand that what works on research papers doesn't always pan out when you put the players on the field and let them run around and bang into each other. There is an intangible, thoroughly unscientific bond that occurs between a good dog and handler team that I don't think can be replicated in sterile scientific research. But it's real.

Really, in the grand scheme of things, this debate is unimportant, esecially when I have a steak and the new Punisher movie waiting on me. :)

Demo Dick


I understand you're a trained sociologist, with a B.S. (or is it B.A.)...I am a trained psychologist, with a Ph.D.....my Ph.D. is in the area of learning and cognition, and I have been published in this area...I know the theories and the research, and the application like the back of my hand - and have seen it first hand used with dogs, mice, rats, pigeons, humans, dogs, and even fruitflies (don't ask).

These are tried and true methods that work across organisms and across situations...

In fact, much research in this area has been done with dogs...

But you are right....this debate, in my eyes, and in my opinion is rather unimportant in the grand scheme of things...and we'll have to agree to disagree about our opinions on this topic.
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

Katrina
Sacha CGC - Dumb Lab
Nisha CGC, PDC, PSA TC, PSA 1 - Crazy Malinois
Drusilla SLUT- Pet
Nemo - Dual-Purpose Narcotics
Cy TC, PSA 1, PSA 2, 2009 PSA Level 3 National Champion
Axo - Psycho Puppy
Rocky - RIP My Baby Boy
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Postby DemoDick » April 3rd, 2009, 12:06 am

I understand you're a trained sociologist, with a B.S. (or is it B.A.)...I am a trained psychologist, with a Ph.D.....my Ph.D. is in the area of learning and cognition, and I have been published in this area...I know the theories and the research, and the application like the back of my hand - and have seen it first hand used with dogs, mice, rats, pigeons, humans, dogs, and even fruitflies (don't ask).

These are tried and true methods that work across organisms and across situations...

In fact, much research in this area has been done with dogs...

But you are right....this debate, in my eyes, and in my opinion is rather unimportant in the grand scheme of things...and we'll have to agree to disagree about our opinions on this topic.


The bullsit stops when the tailgate drops. :)

Demo Dick
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