Corrections

[TheRedQueen]

Split from this topic: viewtopic.php?f=19&t=27047

For those of you that use a correction when a dog doesn't respond to a known cue, do you stop beforehand and think about why the dog might not be responding...or do you just administer the correction regardless of the reason?

I once witnessed a woman training a dog to do a formal dumbbell retrieve. The dog knew the command...went out and picked up the dumbbell and dropped it. The woman then went out, ear pinched the dog...and forced her mouth around the dumbbell. The dog carried the dumbbell back. They did it again, and again, and again.

Turns out, she found out a week later...the dog had broken a tooth and had an exposed nerve. It hurt to pick up that dumbbell. The handler never questioned "why"...she just assumed she was being stubborn/spiteful/etc.

We did some sessions at Clicker Expo about why a dog might not respond to a known cue...and we use this in puppy class now...to avoid leaping to a correction first, questioning later.

I like this homework one woman gave herself...why SHE might not respond to a known cue (I don't know a 100% reliable human):
http://www.clickertraining.com/node/1405

Kathy Sdao on cues...
http://www.shirleychong.com/keepers/arc ... ommand.txt

[BullyLady]

Of course I do!! If my dog is repeatedly balking at something, not just taking it slow or spacing off, I look for a reason why. But usually my dogs are just being passive agressive and taking their sweet damn time.

I'm actually a little insulted that you asked that. I would never just ceaselessly correct my dog without looking for a reason behind it. I get the impression that you think corrections are inappropriate. If that is the case then you have fairly narrow dog experience because there are some dogs who must have corrections. I happen to own one, and I don't appreciate being compared to a heartless trainer because my dog requires a different style of training than yours.

[furever_pit]

um...yeah. Repeated balking is very different from the testing my dog gives me. Every once in a while he wants to make sure I am really in charge. And if I don't correct him I am in trouble cause, well you know the saying "give them an inch and they'll take a mile".

100% +R does not work for all dogs. All corrections are not inherently negative. They are both tools, it just depends on how you use them.

[TheRedQueen]

I'm not saying you all abuse your animals...I was just giving an extreme example. I do use punishment with my dogs, I've said that numerous times...it's not all 100% R+...I sound like a broken record. I do believe that there are better ways than P+ however. Just because I'm in minority, I'm always getting "oh, you mean ol' clicker trainer...insulting us because you questioned the use of corrections." Eh...I've heard it all. Sorry for any personal insult...it was not meant, truly. I honestly wanted to know if people on here really questioned what they were doing...because most times, IRL, I see corrections issued without question.

And no, I honestly don't believe that there are dogs that REQUIRE corrections...sorry, it's true, it's out there. If you WANT to use corrections, sure go ahead...your dog. I was just asking if people did question why the dog wasn't responding, before issuing the correction. If you were training another type of animal, where you couldn't use collar corrections...what would you resort to? (Chicken, rabbit, cat, etc)

My other question then would be...if you have to REPEATEDLY correct a behavior...1. Does the dog really know it to start with, and 2. is that correction really working?

Mods...can you separate this into a separate thread...I think I've taken this too far off topic for the original post...

[BullyLady]

Well again, I can't answer that question for you, because I haven't ever had to repeatedly correct one behavior. It's almost always a different behavior than it was last time, it's almost always that my dogs are just being lazy and not paying attention to me, or are just testing me by taking their sweet time. And honestly, it flat out doesn't happen that often. And we are going to have to agree to disagree that some dogs must have corrections, because if Sirius didn't have corrections he would have had to been euthanized for biting, of that I am sure. And no, he isn't fear agressive, and yes we have had him evaluated by a professional trainer.

[dlynne1123]

I'm not saying you all abuse your animals...I was just giving an extreme example. I do use punishment with my dogs, I've said that numerous times...it's not all 100% R+...I sound like a broken record. I do believe that there are better ways than P+ however. Just because I'm in minority, I'm always getting "oh, you mean ol' clicker trainer...insulting us because you questioned the use of corrections." Eh...I've heard it all. Sorry for any personal insult...it was not meant, truly. I honestly wanted to know if people on here really questioned what they were doing...because most times, IRL, I see corrections issued without question.

And no, I honestly don't believe that there are dogs that REQUIRE corrections...sorry, it's true, it's out there. If you WANT to use corrections, sure go ahead...your dog. I was just asking if people did question why the dog wasn't responding, before issuing the correction. If you were training another type of animal, where you couldn't use collar corrections...what would you resort to? (Chicken, rabbit, cat, etc)

My other question then would be...if you have to REPEATEDLY correct a behavior...1. Does the dog really know it to start with, and 2. is that correction really working?

Mods...can you separate this into a separate thread...I think I've taken this too far off topic for the original post...

I'm not sure I understand that question as all animals require different means of training. Its how they respond. I've read somewhere that horse people are great with dogs b/c they understand the importance of both positive reward and negative corrections and timing. Horses need both, so do I think, most dogs. They're simply dangerous when out of control! A chihuahua may not need the same method as a boxer, that's when a trainer suggests different techniques. However a rabbit or cat or bird is going to use different techniques too! You can't assume cookie cutter training methods will work on every animal. I try to accommodate my clients depending on if they 70 years old or 18, taking into consideration the drive of the dog too! High drive dogs won't feel a correction the same as lower drive dogs. My dog, when chasing a cat (or attempting to chase a cat) is not going to respond the same as when we are in controlled training at the facility.

I've been assuming that most people on here (not all) have tried some run around techniques and have started low and worked their way up. I do understand those questions when dealing with maybe a client or first time dog owner, but I can understand how some may take offense.

[TheRedQueen]

Another question...What happens if you are physically unable to make a correction? (assuming that SOME dogs need corrections)

The question still stands also...what would happen if you were told to train a different type of animal...one that cannot have collar corrections? For example...marine mammal trainers went to marker signals, because the animals were too large to correct...and didn't appreciate the trainers trying to do so. What would you do if faced with something that is too large or too small/fragile to accept physical corrections? I'm not talking about breeds of dogs...but say, a cat or rabbit, or chicken?

[TheRedQueen]

And we are going to have to agree to disagree that some dogs must have corrections, because if Sirius didn't have corrections he would have had to been euthanized for biting, of that I am sure. And no, he isn't fear agressive, and yes we have had him evaluated by a professional trainer.

Just curious...did you try him with a method of training that used no physical corrections?

[BullyLady]

And we are going to have to agree to disagree that some dogs must have corrections, because if Sirius didn't have corrections he would have had to been euthanized for biting, of that I am sure. And no, he isn't fear agressive, and yes we have had him evaluated by a professional trainer.

Just curious...did you try him with a method of training that used no physical corrections?

We sure did. I had never issued a correction in my life when we got him, didn't own a prong or a choke collar, I didn't even understand what they were or how they worked. Previous to Sirius we were 100% +R trainers, because Sophie allowed us to be. We had Sirius for about six months and were doing only +R with him the entire time. The culmination of that was that he BIT my husband and left several puncture wounds and lots of blood. I was *more* dominant over Sirius than my husband at times, but Sirius was still snapping at me and growling at me all the time. To the point where, he would occasionally be chewing on something inappropriate that he found on the floor or whatever, I would get a treat to "trade" him, and when I told him to drop it and offer the treat he would just flat out lunge at me and grazed me with his teeth many many times.

He understood the commands and performed excellently in treat and click situations, but when it came down to real life he wouldn't even think of listening to us, and if we tried to enforce it (say, pushing his bottom down when he isn't sitting on command) we always got bit. Introducing the prong collar turned him into a new dog. He wore it 24/7 for a couple of months so that we could correct when needed, and started taking him to a trainer and working with him, and I can't even explain to you, he's a whole new dog. Now he doesn't even wear a collar around the house anymore, much less a prong and a leash, he is pleasant to be around and understands that we are the alphas. He gets that if we ask him to do something and he doesn't he will be made to do it. We are issuing only soft corrections now, like invading his space, and hardly ever that because he respects us. And, as you can see in my signature, he even got his Canine Good Citizen certificate. When you're dealing with rescue dogs you have to take it at their pace, give them what they need. This dog needed corrections, and if I hadn't have given them to them he would be dead.

[airwalk]

Actually I get where Erin is coming from. My Magic is "special" as I like to call him. He almost beat me and almost wound up rehomed or euthanized because he has so much trouble focusing for more than a couple of minutes.

I always appreciate the wide range of thinking here because while Scooter is easy and a hard verbal command pretty much takes care of any misbehavior...with Magic I might as well be yelling at the wall.

Erin, I have started using more and more reinforment/reward training with Magic and it does seem to have helped us reach a higher level than before, so trust me I read your stuff.

With Magic he isn't aggressive and doesn't snap and I'm able to pick him up, turn him over, hold him in all kinds of positions....he just has trouble shutting up and focusing.

[Hundilein]

I have to jump in here. I mean absolutely no offense by this, I'm just trying to help Erin explain her point of view because it's one I share with her.

Just curious...did you try him with a method of training that used no physical corrections?

We sure did. I had never issued a correction in my life when we got him, didn't own a prong or a choke collar, I didn't even understand what they were or how they worked. Previous to Sirius we were 100% +R trainers, because Sophie allowed us to be. We had Sirius for about six months and were doing only +R with him the entire time. The culmination of that was that he BIT my husband and left several puncture wounds and lots of blood. I was *more* dominant over Sirius than my husband at times, but Sirius was still snapping at me and growling at me all the time. To the point where, he would occasionally be chewing on something inappropriate that he found on the floor or whatever, I would get a treat to "trade" him, and when I told him to drop it and offer the treat he would just flat out lunge at me and grazed me with his teeth many many times.

(emphasis added)
100% R+ is not the same thing as a lack of physical corrections. Neither Erin nor I use 100% R+ in training, and I would never argue that 100% R+ works best. There need to be consequences in training. Clicker trainers do use a lot of R+, but we also use P-, and even P+ on occasion.

He understood the commands and performed excellently in treat and click situations, but when it came down to real life he wouldn't even think of listening to us, and if we tried to enforce it (say, pushing his bottom down when he isn't sitting on command) we always got bit. Introducing the prong collar turned him into a new dog. He wore it 24/7 for a couple of months so that we could correct when needed, and started taking him to a trainer and working with him, and I can't even explain to you, he's a whole new dog. Now he doesn't even wear a collar around the house anymore, much less a prong and a leash, he is pleasant to be around and understands that we are the alphas. He gets that if we ask him to do something and he doesn't he will be made to do it. We are issuing only soft corrections now, like invading his space, and hardly ever that because he respects us. And, as you can see in my signature, he even got his Canine Good Citizen certificate. When you're dealing with rescue dogs you have to take it at their pace, give them what they need. This dog needed corrections, and if I hadn't have given them to them he would be dead.

(emphasis added)

If he understood commands when you had treats out, but didn't listen when no treats were present, it sounds like he hadn't generalized the behavior and was still dependent on treats. Did you work to fade food treats out of your training? That's something that is touted quite frequently by people who don't believe in clicker training, and it's the result of incomplete training.

I point this out because you got upset when Erin shared a story about a trainer using corrections with a dog in pain, and you felt she was lumping everyone who trains with corrections together and using an example that is different than the way you use corrections to make a point. Your example of clicker training does much the same thing. Anyone claiming to use 100% R+ does not train the way Erin and I, and other clicker trainers do. We choose not to use physical corrections, but that doesn't mean we don't provide consequences for our dogs.

[airwalk]

I do use some physical correction but they, well until Magic, were relatively mild. A leash pop, an occassional tap on the fanny type of thing...most of my corrections have always been the removal of attention or treat or privileges.

I have to admit Magic can get under my skin and irritate me and I have to be extremely cautious about my corrections and why and how and to what level. It would be really easy to get ticked off at him - but I know that it is a lack of his ability to focus and I haven't yet found just the right sequence of rewards and consequences to master this yet, thus my continuing questions.

[BullyLady]

I think I must not be understanding, how do you give a correction without giving a correction? What other kind of consequence is there?

And you're right, I was assuming that Erin meant she didn't use any corrections at all. If that is not the truth then I stand corrected.

And yes, we had phased treats out. I admit that I am a novice dog trainer, but I'm a well educated one. I don't want to screw up my dogs, so with all three of them I have worked with professionals. I even took an eight week course on just clicker training. It was a beginners class at an obedience school, and you didn't even have to bring your dog if you didn't want to, because we were really just there to learn how to clicker train. I only say this to give you a point of reference that I do know what I'm doing when it comes to clicker training (though I use verbal markers now) and I know how to train a behavior to completion. Sirius and I had been stringing behaviors together and were working on moving past basic things in the "training setting" it's just that when it wasn't what he wanted to do, or wasn't convenient for him, he would act like he didn't even know what "sit" was.

[Hundilein]

I do use some physical correction but they, well until Magic, were relatively mild. A leash pop, an occassional tap on the fanny type of thing...most of my corrections have always been the removal of attention or treat or privileges.

I have to admit Magic can get under my skin and irritate me and I have to be extremely cautious about my corrections and why and how and to what level. It would be really easy to get ticked off at him - but I know that it is a lack of his ability to focus and I haven't yet found just the right sequence of rewards and consequences to master this yet, thus my continuing questions.

This brings up another reason why I choose not to use physical corrections. I have a quick temper. It's something I've been working on my whole life to improve. I find it difficult to stay calm when something starts to annoy me. So while I hear people say all the time that they don't give corrections in anger, and that corrections should never be given in anger, I find that nearly impossible to do. I know that this is my own personal flaw, and I'm sure there are people out there whose fuses are not as short as mine, and who can train with corrections without getting frustrated. I choose to use a different method that is more forgiving of my temper, and keeps me from getting frustrated so often.

[Hundilein]

I think I must not be understanding, how do you give a correction without giving a correction? What other kind of consequence is there?

And you're right, I was assuming that Erin meant she didn't use any corrections at all. If that is not the truth then I stand corrected.

I don't want to put words into Erin's mouth, so I'm going to explain more what I do and let her answer this question in her own words if she wants to.

I don't give "corrections" in the sense of physically putting my hands on my dog or using a leash and collar to provide a correction. I use primarily P- with occasional P+ in the form of yelling (this usually happens when I am stressed and don't have the energy to deal with the dogs, and ends up being more management than actual training). So, when Renee doesn't sit or takes her sweet time about sitting at the back door, I walk away. When she gets overexcited about the prospect of a walk, I put the leash down and walk away. If she starts to bark at me in the evening because she wants her dinner, or to go outside, she gets a time out in the laundry room. When Renee ignores me on a walk because she sees a squirrel, I turn around and walk away from it.

I also try to recognize when a situation truly is over my dog's head. In those cases, I manage my dog the best I can, and make a note to work on whatever the problem was at another time.

And yes, we had phased treats out. I admit that I am a novice dog trainer, but I'm a well educated one. I don't want to screw up my dogs, so with all three of them I have worked with professionals. I even took an eight week course on just clicker training. It was a beginners class at an obedience school, and you didn't even have to bring your dog if you didn't want to, because we were really just there to learn how to clicker train. I only say this to give you a point of reference that I do know what I'm doing when it comes to clicker training (though I use verbal markers now) and I know how to train a behavior to completion. Sirius and I had been stringing behaviors together and were working on moving past basic things in the "training setting" it's just that when it wasn't what he wanted to do, or wasn't convenient for him, he would act like he didn't even know what "sit" was.

I'm not trying to be a smart ass here, I am genuinely curious, because this is something I struggle with sometimes. How do you determine when a dog knows a command?

[BullyLady]

Well, do you understand my differentiation between "training time" and "real life"? Training time is 5 or 10 min a day that I set aside where we do commands, give alot of praise and treats, revisit old commands we haven't used in awhile, walk around on a leash to reinforce good heeling, etc..... Real life is when he is jumping up on someone who came in the door and I tell him to sit, he stops for a split second and looks at me, then resumes jumping. I know he knows sit, he will do it in training time with no reward, he will do it when there's nothing exciting going on with no reward, I know he heard me he made eye contact, he just isn't doing it. That's just one example of many.

[Hundilein]

I don't have time to reply to this now, but will come back later. I do understand the difference between training time and real life. My question was more, how do you determine when a dog knows a behavior. You say "he knows sit". How do you know he knows? Again, I'm not trying to be a smart ass, I'm genuinely curious. And I'm sorry if I'm not making sense. I have a cold, and I'm still in a bit of a Nyquil haze.

[maberi]

I tend to stay away from these conversations because people have different styles of training and I usually leave that up to them to decide what they want to do, but to me it sounds like you haven't generalized the behavior properly.

If he is jumping on people when they arrive at the house and you ask him to sit then I would work on practicing that behavior the same way you taught him to sit in an undistracting environment.

If my dog has a reliable sit in a training environment the first thing I do is take him to other areas and retrain (I repeat, retrain) that behavior over and over again until it is then reliable in different situations. If Earl jumps on people when they approach, I develop specific training sessions where people approach and the only way he gets reinforced (petting from the stranger, treat from me) is if he is sitting. In situations where you have not properly proofed a behavior (even as simple as sitting), you really do have to retrain (practice) the behavior.

In general, dogs generalize very poorly so to you sit may mean sit anywhere I ask you to, but to him, sit may mean I sit when mom asks me to do so in the kitchen when she is holding a cookie.

[airwalk]

Matt and Sarah I agree that often when we think they know a command it is as much their lack of ability to generalize the command as not "knowing" it. In Magic's case, some of the time, for instance his sit in the car - we do it twice a day, 5 days a week, so yes he knows he's suppose to sit in that location, he's just very slow about doing so.

[fenella]

I think the original question is a good one.
I clicker train, but, like the dogs, am not perfect (As Erin can attest to from my tirade of Friday night)

Anyway, I think that I agree with most of what everyone has said. I see the need to retrain in different situations (something I, myself, need to work on with my guys).
I have used physical corrections before, but now use the clicker and -P most of the time.
By the nature of the training method, I feel that I have to be more aware of what my dog is doing when I am not using physical corrections. That is, if I am training with a clicker and the dog isn't performing, I HAVE to figure out why. With the prong, I didn't necessarily have to do that.
Now, that is not to say that people who use physical corrections are abusing their dogs, nor that they don't try to figure out why the dog isn't responding to a known cue. IMHO, it is easier to skip that step when you are using physical corrections. (I have trained both ways on the same dog)
I think that most of the time, we are talking about people who are not as enlightened as those on these who take the time to post on a dog board.
If you are a trainer, I think Erin's original questions serves as a reminder to educate your clients about such thing, regardless of the training methods used.