Evaluation from today....

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Postby Maryellen » April 20th, 2006, 9:24 am

i hear everything you are saying megan.. and i am not only talking from a rescue standpoint.. i understand from an owner standpoint as well... if bruce was living in NJ he would have been declared a dangerous dog for biting 3 times.. as far as the other dog biting 15 people, i amsorry, but i dont think that dog should have been a therapy dog..

i plan on coming to one of chris's seminars, to see how he works and all, i dont doubt his training at all, i just personally feel a dog that bites like bruce and the other dog shouldnt be trusted around people, let alone be a therapy dog.. if the therapy group found out that the other dog bit 15 people i highly doubt they would have certified him..

i think we all have our own opinions, and whether right or wrong, they are our own..

i dont want my right to own whatever breed of dog i want ruined by a dog that is a biter.. irregardless of breed..
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Postby CarrieH » April 20th, 2006, 10:37 am

Why should the dog be the one to be punished (ie:euthanized) if his biting behavior is ALL due to poor handling on its owners part? The owner, IMO, is the one that should be taking the blame.

If an owner is willing to learn the errors of their ways and become a responsible dog owner and the dog learns appropriately from its handler then it truly does have the potential to become an upstanding canine citizen.

On the other hand, if this biting dog is genetically predispotitioned to be a dangerous biter then I would say that is a Completely Different Story.
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Postby SisMorphine » April 20th, 2006, 10:43 am

Pssst! Carrie. I didn't even know you were on the board (duh should have figured when you asked me the other day if I was SisMorphine) so a belated and quiet welcome as not to hijack the thread. :wave:
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Postby CarrieH » April 20th, 2006, 2:07 pm

Howdy to you too! Nice to meet you up at Chris' place. Hope to see you around more! (I believe I will!) :D
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Postby Nelson » April 21st, 2006, 12:40 pm

In many parts of Europe dog training is like baseball here. Very common and almost everyone has done it at one time or another. Dogs over there are comonly seen in bars, restaurantes, etc. The craddle of most protection dog sports come from them or are "spin offs" of these. Over there any regional and national championships are overflowed by people.

On the other hand here in the US it's different, to say the least! There're very few public places where you can take your dog, especially restaurantes. Besides Schutzhund, almost all other protection/sport trials like Ring, Mondio, ASR, PSA, etc have numbers that don't get into thousands. If we consider that most European countries can fit into just 1 of our states, we can clearly see why we have many people who are totally against and scared of bitework. It's comprehensible, they haven't had enough exposition to it, to be able to have an unbiased opinion on it.

I think if it was a dog in rescue who had bitten 3 people then yes, it should be put to sleep. Why? Because it has issues and rescues do not usually have the ability to do rehab for the time necessary to be able to safely adopt out this dog

Let me coment on this. There's a famous "sit-com" called Frasier that was the number 1 program for many years. In that series there was an active participation of a Jack Russel Terrier. This was a very well trained dog that had many acting parts in that series. This dog was due to be put down in the shelter he was in because of his agressive and unruly behavior. Yet his new owner/trainer saw the potencial in him and changed him from an aprehensive, unruly, biting machine to one of the most deared dogs ever.

Killing a dog (no matter how "nice" anyone might try to put it by saying "putting it down", "putting it to sleep", euthanizing it, etc) may seem natural for some. But for those of us who see dogs as an integral part of our family, it totally unacceptable. There are always ways to deal with an aggresive dog. Let's not forget the saying: "A handler always ends up with the dog he deserves". Unfortunately a dog can't choose his owner, but if all try to "look through the dogs' eyes", we'll see a completely different perspective of things.

But until we can actually put ourselves in the dogs' place and see things through his eyes, we will not be able to grow. We are very fortunate to have a trainer of the caliber of Chris Fraize contributing here. Yet reading his posts and attending his seminars will only be helpful to those who do so with a clear, unclouded mind. When you look for knowledge you will get it. When you look for excuses you'll also find or make it up. Chris Fraize is sharing his wisdom (knowledge gained by experience and good judgement), accepting and taking advantage of it .... is a choice. Personally, I'll always choose to be more knowledgable.
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Postby huskyhouse » April 21st, 2006, 3:56 pm

Chris, nicely done, if I've ever seen a case of "dog who can't handle the job given to him" it's Bruce.
I'd have to agree that this was a learned behavior, everything in that dogs body posture is telling me that he was forced into the position of "guarding" by the owners, a job that made him uncomfortable, to say the least. Would I recommend a euthanization for a dog like this? Not very likely, as long as the owners are 100% commited to the rehab process.
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Postby 04100824 » April 21st, 2006, 4:46 pm

I applaud you, Chris. If you have that much experience and you can back up these animals as being truly changed, then congratulations on saving the animals that would otherwise be considered hopeless.

I think it's great, too, that you've noted that there is a definate difference between inherited genetic personality and learned behavior.
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Postby Asta » April 22nd, 2006, 11:14 am

I am not knowledgable enough to say yay or booh as far as rehabbing Bruce. My guts however do tell me that i do feel a bit iffy about it...
Anyhoo, i was merely going to make a post in regards to dogs in europe and said restaurantvisits. It is simply not true. You do get a few places in France and Italy, but that is about it. The trainingpart also really depends on where in europe youre talking about.
Somehow i really wish that people just would stop talking about europe like it is one country...With one kind of people etc

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Postby ellie@ny » April 22nd, 2006, 11:55 am

Asta I have to agree with you!I'm from EU too,and dogs not allowed everywhere....That's BS.But of course there are some places you can go but not all.

Chris,nice job with that "monster"! When I saw that video,sadly it reminded me for my last show,where I was waching this breed,and the open dogs 30% was shy from the judge...It was pretty funny to see a huge dog with tucked tail,or sitting down when the jugde was examinating them.....Nah it was sad.......
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