Your original comment was that once the dog was chasing the squirrel, treats and hugs wouldn't work. Thus, my comment that if the dog is chasing a squirrel *with* the prong on, it won't help either. If the dog has gotten away from you, and is *not* wearing an e-collar, no training equipment will help you at that point
Unless you've used the training equipment to establish that there are consequences for said behavior that are severe enough to stop the dog. That was my point.
A history of reinforcement will work...and yes, a cookie for leaving something alone can work, it works for my dogs and many others. With enough reinforcement, it can work.
That's my point. With enough reinforcement. How long should we allow a potentially life threatening behavior to continue?
Just because it doesn't work for YOU, does not mean it doesn't work.
Where did you get the idea that it doesn't work for me? I use a variety of methods depending on the situation.
I'm not saying that your methods don't work, why do you insist on telling me that mine don't? I'm just not sure why you keep saying that.
There is a place for marker training. I just don't believe that place is in eliminating dangerous, self rewarding behaviors.
First, you cannot proof with positive methods. Teach yes, proof no.
Why not? Have you tried it?
Proofing involves creating a situation where the dog can (and does) perform incorrectly so that he can learn the consequences for doing so. I do not believe that this is possible unless the dog recieves a correction.
So bitesports are the only way to learn how to train a dog? My years training experience shows nothing? Sheesh, thanks a lot.
That wasn't meant as a slam. Of course bitesports are not the only way to train a dog. However, bitesports do require the deepest understanding of drives and behavior (especially aggression/combat behaviors) of pretty much all dog sports. That does not mean that you can't call yourself a dog trainer until you do bitework. In fact, if I were going to get serious about competetive agility, weight pull, etc. I would seek out a good trainer, because the day I have it all figured out I'll hang up the leash and move on.
How do you entice the dog to stay with you when every fiber in his being wants to bite the decoy?
The same way I work with a dog that wants to go do anything else, work at a distance at first, until I can work that dog closer to the desired object/person/dog/etc. Maybe I have to walk away to gain the dog's attention, maybe I have to try something else. I haven't done bitesports, so I'm not sure what I would do, honestly. I'll admit that I don't know what I would do in that exact situation. I do know what I would do for dogs that were keyed up in flyball and wanted to chase another dog, I know what I would do for service dogs that flip out at the sight of bicycles, but no, I don't know what I would do in this exact situation.
That was my point in bringing in bitework as an example. The bitework dog has been trained to bite the decoy, and loves to do so. He also knows that he is likely going to get to bite the decoy at some point in the session. So we are asking him to control himself in the face of a pending reward that he wants more than anything, and will load him sky-high. He knows the bite is coming at some point, but he must control himself until the time is right. The flyball dog has not been trained to go after the other dogs. The service dog has not been trained to go after the bicycle. These dogs must control themselves in the face of a stimulus that is never going to be an option anyway.
I do know that if bitesports required a physical correction for my dog, than it is not the sport for me. Simple as that.
I think it's unfortunate that you have closed off this option for yourself. I'll try anything reasonable if it makes sense.
I don't understand the following two statements; they seem to contradict each other:
I have yet to say that yours absolutely don't work. I've stated that it can go wrong in the wrong hands, or that there is the potential for abuse or mis-handling, but never have said that the methods won't work in the right hands.
My guys know I'm not a dog, so while they might take physical corrections from each other, why would they take them from me?
The second statement seems to imply that you feel that dogs do not understand physical corrections from people. This appears to contradict the first statement. Can you clarify what you mean by this? I'm sure I'm missing something.
Please don't take this personally. It's a difference in opinion. I can maintain personal friendships with (shudder) political liberals and my favorite color is camoflauge. This is nothing.