shock collars

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Postby katiek0417 » September 6th, 2007, 10:08 pm

Some dogs have so much drive, that you can hit them at the highest levels on the e-collar, and they still blow you off....especially in bitework (for the herders) and field work for labs...

The purpose of 2 collars is the extra stimulation...

The purpose of 1 on the groin, is b/c IT IS so sensitive of an area...

Perfect example: Jue. Jue has been blowing call offs. Tonight, Greg had a long line attached to a pinch collar, so that he would correct himself, Jue was blowing through that...the other day, he was using an e-collar at the highest levels (and the e-collar he was using was a 3500 which is the highest one out there), and Jue didn't care...tonight he strapped the e-collar around Jue's waist...Even at 60, Jue was going through it....

I've seen many mals like this....
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Postby mnp13 » September 6th, 2007, 10:57 pm

After our little "disaster" at the DSO I asked Cheryl about using an e-collar on Riggs to get him to out. She had this explaination as to why you shouldn't use one on the dog's neck to work on the out:

when you hit muscles with an electrical stimulus you get an effect called "galvanizing." This is when the muscles clench and "hold." If you have ever grabbed an electric fence and were unable to get your hand off, that is what was happening. so, when people put the collar on the neck and then use the continuous button to try to get the dog to out, they are actually asking for the opposite of what the electric stimulus is creating.

Personally, I was not willing to put the collar anywhere else but on Riggs' neck, so we dumped that idea.

In relation to the Bichon, I have no idea.
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Postby brooksybrooks1 » September 7th, 2007, 1:35 pm

man, i think that even if it worked to strap an ecollar to a dogs d***, it's not worth it. i wouldn't want to do that to my dog. just because they can or will handle doesn't mean they should, in my opinion. it's kinda like the sch ha (is that the right one?) where they will have a dog run 12miles next to a bike. obviously there a million dogs that can do this just fine, but sometimes the dogs will do it and have bloody paws and be in pain afterwards. to me, just because they will run through the pain doesn't mean that they should do it.

take cleo, for example. she was in kidney failure and had succumbed to canine diabetes and gone almost completely blind before she started acting different around us at all- and the only difference was she drank a lot more and barked at dogs and was less responsive to us, no limping around or running into things or less happy behavior. obviously she was uncomfortable and in pain, she just chose not to let us know. just because she acted tough does that mean we should have kept her alive? we didn't. sometimes dogs can be undergoing a lot of trauma without skipping a beat, and it's up to us to make the more responsible decision FOR them.
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Postby DemoDick » September 8th, 2007, 2:46 am

man, i think that even if it worked to strap an ecollar to a dogs d***, it's not worth it. i wouldn't want to do that to my dog. just because they can or will handle doesn't mean they should, in my opinion. it's kinda like the sch ha (is that the right one?) where they will have a dog run 12miles next to a bike.


First, that's not a fair comparison, as there is no increased risk of injury by putting an e-collar around a dogs flanks as opposed to around his neck. The stimulus is the same, or even less, as the area is more sensitive. It just sounds more extreme. Second, it is up to the handlers to condition the dog to the endurance test before trial time. A well conditioned dog can handle it just fine, but a dog relying on drive alone is going to tear himself up. Responsible upland hunters know to condition their dog's pads before hunting season and do so. Just because some do not does not make the test or task unfair.

I think the e-collar has the potential to create more avoidance than other correction methods for a very simple reason. There is no physical relationship between the dog and handler when the correction is delivered, and this can scare the hell out of the dog. Dogs readily learn and understand what a leash is and how is can be used to deliver a correction. Leash pop=unpleasant correction. But simply strapping an e-collar on the dog without building an association between the electrical stimulus and a physical correction that he already understands (and more importantly, understands how to avoid) can often push a dog into avoidance. Instead of instantly recognizing that he was just corrected and adjusting his behavior, the dog thinks "What the hell was THAT and when is it going to happen again?!?" Meanwhile he is still performing incorrectly and will likely get another jolt. The dog feels elevated stress and unless he figures out that he is being corrected it will get worse. This is, IMO, why many people don't like e-collars and think that they produce more avoidance than other methods of correction.

Coupling a low-level electrical correction with a physical leash correction delivered at exactly the same time seems like the best way to introduce the e-collar. If I choose to use an e-collar with my next dog this is the method I will use, as it more clearly teaches the dog that the electrical correction is the same as a leash correction and is just as easy to avoid. But I actually like consciously avoiding the e-collar in training because doing things the old fashioned way forces me to learn more about behaviors.

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Postby katiek0417 » September 8th, 2007, 8:00 am

On September 08 2007, 1:46 AM, DemoDick wrote:
man, i think that even if it worked to strap an ecollar to a dogs d***, it's not worth it. i wouldn't want to do that to my dog. just because they can or will handle doesn't mean they should, in my opinion. it's kinda like the sch ha (is that the right one?) where they will have a dog run 12miles next to a bike.


First, that's not a fair comparison, as there is no increased risk of injury by putting an e-collar around a dogs flanks as opposed to around his neck. The stimulus is the same, or even less, as the area is more sensitive. It just sounds more extreme. Second, it is up to the handlers to condition the dog to the endurance test before trial time. A well conditioned dog can handle it just fine, but a dog relying on drive alone is going to tear himself up. Responsible upland hunters know to condition their dog's pads before hunting season and do so. Just because some do not does not make the test or task unfair.

I think the e-collar has the potential to create more avoidance than other correction methods for a very simple reason. There is no physical relationship between the dog and handler when the correction is delivered, and this can scare the hell out of the dog. Dogs readily learn and understand what a leash is and how is can be used to deliver a correction. Leash pop=unpleasant correction. But simply strapping an e-collar on the dog without building an association between the electrical stimulus and a physical correction that he already understands (and more importantly, understands how to avoid) can often push a dog into avoidance. Instead of instantly recognizing that he was just corrected and adjusting his behavior, the dog thinks "What the hell was THAT and when is it going to happen again?!?" Meanwhile he is still performing incorrectly and will likely get another jolt. The dog feels elevated stress and unless he figures out that he is being corrected it will get worse. This is, IMO, why many people don't like e-collars and think that they produce more avoidance than other methods of correction.

Coupling a low-level electrical correction with a physical leash correction delivered at exactly the same time seems like the best way to introduce the e-collar. If I choose to use an e-collar with my next dog this is the method I will use, as it more clearly teaches the dog that the electrical correction is the same as a leash correction and is just as easy to avoid. But I actually like consciously avoiding the e-collar in training because doing things the old fashioned way forces me to learn more about behaviors.

Demo Dick


Great Post, Demo...with the exception of Sacha, my dogs have been introduced to the e-collar this way...These dogs handle correction much better than Sacha....and, aren't collar-wise....

Interestingly, with TJ, I use BOTH an e-collar and pinch collar (w/leash) in training. Whenever I give a correction, the correction comes from both the pinch and the e-collar...if he is still acting squirrel-ly I raise the stim on the e-collar. The problem is that in the PSA level 3's, anything goes...as far as agitation, that is....so I have to make an impression on him that he is NOT TO DO ANYTHING unless I tell him to...and his attention should be on me AT ALL TIMES (unless I put him in an object guard and have to be out of sight...but then he is taught to only make a move if the decoy is within a certain perimeter...)....

I think there are too many people that just slap e-collars on dogs without properly introducing it. It's a training tool, really not much different than a leash w/prong collar...yet most of us will introduce the prong correctly (let them wear it for about a week, etc)...
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

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Postby GregMK9 » September 8th, 2007, 2:01 pm

Arighty then! Looks like I've missed out on a good subject.

There seems to be a lot of misconceptions about the e-collar. But the e-collar is nothing more then a tool and if used properly a very good tool. The e-collar can be abused, but then again so can the prong and the choke chain.
Dogs do not understand the e-collar as a correction and therefore need to be taught it's a correction if that is your style of training. Correction is my primary use of the -collar although from time to time I use it to motivate also. But I'll get into that later.
The way Demo described introducing the e-collar above coupled with prong collar corrections is right on the money and is also how I introduce the e-collar.
My training starts by using food to teach the dog what I want. I eventually give less and less food till I'm down to just a couple pieces of food per session. At this point I know the dog knows what I'm asking so I then introduce prong collar corrections.
I like the prong collar correction b/c the dog already understands it as a correction due to the scruffing corrections they get from their mother as well as siblings with in the litter. Also, I don't have to put as much effort into a prong correction as I would a choke chain correction. Add to that there's a ton of research showing the long term damage a choke chain causes to a dog as opposed to a prong.
Once I have a strong foundation in obedience and the dog is mature enough (Not young dogs) then I introduce thee-collar using the method Demo described earlier.
For me, the e-collar is used to tighten up my dogs obedience. NEVER to teach a behavior. I just believe I can get a better foundation with food, prong, and a leash.
If I have a slow sit, down, or recall I will nick the dog on a low level with the e-collar. A sort of "Tap" on the shoulder and a reminder to say, " speed it up pal".
I also use it a little harsher to correct a bad behavior such as blowing a call off or not outing off the grip.

Now for the two collar question, two collars are used for several reasons. Two on the neck, one is usually a dummy collar for "collar Wise dogs". The dummy is removed right before obedience so the dog thins there is no collar.
As far as the collar on the dogs d***? That's just stupid! And I have never witnessed it. A collar around the waist/ stomach? Yes! Reason is b/c its a sensitive area and as Michelle said in her earlier post, if used to high on a strong dog it can cause muscles to contract and the dog may not be able to out. This can also teach the dog to fight the out b/c he doesn't realize where the correction is coming from so he associates the correction with the decoy and just won't lt go b/c now he's in a serious fight. By using the belly collar you take that fight, or conflict out of the equation b/c your using less stimulation and now the dog can think b/c he's not fighting for his life.

Now for this whole paycheck debate! I work for my pay, and I work harder when there's a bonus involved. However, I'm a brick layer and if I don't want to work that day I don't go in. Or if I get to the job and its something I don't want to do, no amount of pay or bonus is going to make me do it! I go home. Why? B/c there's no repercussion for not doing it! If my boss nags me about something, I take it for a while, but then I get punchy and eventually I either blow up or I go home. Why? B/c there's no punishment! If there was a price to pay for not doing my work, say a 3 day suspension and my boss wasn't playing then I would be more apt to do it! Then if he was riding me about something I'd be more apt to do it.
The same thing with a dog! Yeah, they want to get paid. But without a price to pay for not doing something then the commands and nagging mean nothing as the dog just doesn't do it.
I tell my obedience clients as well as my WDC members all the time, "Stop nagging the dog and correct them.

And finally, there's a lot of speculation on here about Fred Hassen, followed u with, "I'm guessing". What the crap is that. I know Fred, and I've seen him use an e-collar. And he's good with it. His dogs are happy to do there obedience. His only problem in my opinion is he relies on the e-collar too much and never really proofs his dogs without the collar.
I also know a few of his students. And some are GREAT with the e-collar, while others will just never get it. But that holds true with people who do anything in life. Some have it, some don't it!

The collar is a tool with many uses and gives the trainer yet another tool too his/her bag of tricks. If you've never used it, don't knock it! If you've never witnessed someones techniques first hand don't knock it b/c someone else does.
This post is my opinion and my experiences with the e-collar. If you've never used one I don't advise going out and getting one and using it on your dog without the proper training from a professional dog trainer who has experience with e-collars. Used improperly you can ruin an otherwise awesome dog.
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Postby TheRedQueen » September 8th, 2007, 2:25 pm

Or if I get to the job and its something I don't want to do, no amount of pay or bonus is going to make me do it!


So if it was something you don't want to do, but somone offered you say, $100,000 right there to do it, you still wouldn't? There isn't *anything* that would make you change your mind? Sheesh, I'd do a lot of stuff for $100,000, or a night with say, Clive Owen even (mmmmm...*drool*). I think we are all too quick to say there is NOTHING that would make us do something if we didn't like it. As I said, different things motivate us. Sure, what are the chances that someone would offer us that amount of money to do something...slim to none, but with the dogs, offering up bigger rewards is easier (they don't ask for money). ;)

The collar is a tool with many uses and gives the trainer yet another tool too his/her bag of tricks. If you've never used it, don't knock it! If you've never witnessed someones techniques first hand don't knock it b/c someone else does.


I don't think anyone's knocking e-collars/shock collars. So far, I've just seen opinions and reasons why they wouldn't use on. I've brought up examples of poorly used equipment, as one more reason that I dislike the equipment. It's too easy for idiots to ruin/harm their dogs with equipment like this. Do I think everyone uses them improperly? No. Do I think no one should use them? Nah, I'm not telling anyone what to do, or what equipment to use (I recommend, but I don't tell).
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Postby GregMK9 » September 8th, 2007, 6:35 pm

OK, I guess saying nothing was a little strong. But to this day my boss has been unable able to motivate me if I don't want or feel like doing it!
And yes, dogs require less pay, but it's also possible for the dog to find something else more rewarding and blow you off.

And yes, an idiot can ruin a good dog with an e-collar. But an idiot can also ruin a dog with a pinch collar, choke chain or even a news paper! Fact of the matter is any idiot can ruin any dog with any method.
I especially love the heavy handed idiots that decide they want to do protection with there dog after they've smacked it on the nose all it's life!
From what I'm gathering people are forming opinions on something they've never used, but knows somebody, who knows somebody who's great uncle ruined a dog. (OK that's an exaggeration). I just find it funny, that's all.
I'm not trying to change peoples opinions. It is what it is! I just know what works for me, my club members and my clients. And as long as my dogs love what they are doing and don't look beat upon in obedience, I'm happy.
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Postby TheRedQueen » September 8th, 2007, 6:49 pm

On September 08 2007, 5:35 PM, GregMK9 wrote:OK, I guess saying nothing was a little strong. But to this day my boss has been unable able to motivate me if I don't want or feel like doing it!
And yes, dogs require less pay, but it's also possible for the dog to find something else more rewarding and blow you off.

And yes, an idiot can ruin a good dog with an e-collar. But an idiot can also ruin a dog with a pinch collar, choke chain or even a news paper! Fact of the matter is any idiot can ruin any dog with any method.
I especially love the heavy handed idiots that decide they want to do protection with there dog after they've smacked it on the nose all it's life!
From what I'm gathering people are forming opinions on something they've never used, but knows somebody, who knows somebody who's great uncle ruined a dog. (OK that's an exaggeration). I just find it funny, that's all.
I'm not trying to change peoples opinions. It is what it is! I just know what works for me, my club members and my clients. And as long as my dogs love what they are doing and don't look beat upon in obedience, I'm happy.


I freely admit that I've used a choke chain and prong collar, that was what I was trained to use way back when...but I've changed my methods, and find that they work better for me. :) I thought about using a shock collar (it was recommended to me because my old mixed breed used to run off during hikes...I just changed my ways to some extent, instead). So with the exception of the e-collars, I have used all the equipment mentioned so far.

And sure, an idiot can ruin a dog with anything or nothing...that's why we label them idiots. But, I still think maybe choke chains and prong collars could at least come with a booklet or something that tells you how to use them properly, at least have a way to correctly gauge the size for your dog. Or maybe pet stores could put them behind glass, and you have to be told how to use them first. I dunno...wishful thinking. :| At least head halters, front clip harnesses and e-collars come with directions.
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Postby DemoDick » September 9th, 2007, 12:58 am

But, I still think maybe choke chains and prong collars could at least come with a booklet or something that tells you how to use them properly, at least have a way to correctly gauge the size for your dog. Or maybe pet stores could put them behind glass, and you have to be told how to use them first. I dunno...wishful thinking. At least head halters, front clip harnesses and e-collars come with directions.


Good point, although when did people start reading directions? I think clickers should come with a disclaimer too: "Caution: Hot dogs and hugs are not the solution to all behavioral/training problems. Please don't discover this the hard way when your dog gets run over chasing a squirrel as you try to bait him back to you with a cookie."

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Postby TheRedQueen » September 9th, 2007, 8:06 am

"Caution: Hot dogs and hugs are not the solution to all behavioral/training problems. Please don't discover this the hard way when your dog gets run over chasing a squirrel as you try to bait him back to you with a cookie."


And a prong collar will help?

No, a continuous history of reinforcement will help you get your dog back, or to keep your dog from chasing that squirrel...regardless of method used.

(Xander is a squirrel chaser, and I used positive methods to *proof* him around them, before he ever got let off leash around them. He will call off a squirrel if I don't see it first and get his attention.)
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Postby katiek0417 » September 9th, 2007, 9:15 am

On September 09 2007, 7:06 AM, TheRedQueen wrote:
"Caution: Hot dogs and hugs are not the solution to all behavioral/training problems. Please don't discover this the hard way when your dog gets run over chasing a squirrel as you try to bait him back to you with a cookie."


And a prong collar will help?

No, a continuous history of reinforcement will help you get your dog back, or to keep your dog from chasing that squirrel...regardless of method used.

(Xander is a squirrel chaser, and I used positive methods to *proof* him around them, before he ever got let off leash around them. He will call off a squirrel if I don't see it first and get his attention.)


Through reinforcement, huh? TJ has killed small animals before (including a chicken and squirrel)...he got to my house, saw my cats, and thought to himself "lunch!"

We tried corrections on the prong collar, we tried his "leave it" command, luckily I am able to down him on command...finally, he went after the cats one day when Greg was here....we happened to have just gotten back from training so he had his e-collar on....so, Greg set him up...when TJ went after the cat, Greg hit him with the electric...well, let's just say TJ can have the cats walk right up to him now....no avoidance....just has learned that it is NEVER acceptable to go after the cats....
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

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Nisha CGC, PDC, PSA TC, PSA 1 - Crazy Malinois
Drusilla SLUT- Pet
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Postby DemoDick » September 9th, 2007, 10:23 am

And a prong collar will help?


Yes. Absolutely. In fact, a hard correction is often the only thing that will work with a dog loaded in drive. Using a cookie and a clicker to get the dog back when his DNA is telling him to chase, kill, and eat the squirrel is the wrong approach.

No, a continuous history of reinforcement will help you get your dog back, or to keep your dog from chasing that squirrel...regardless of method used


Not if the dog wants the squirrel bad enough. Nothing except a correction is going to work in this case.

(Xander is a squirrel chaser, and I used positive methods to *proof* him around them, before he ever got let off leash around them. He will call off a squirrel if I don't see it first and get his attention.)


First, you cannot proof with positive methods. Teach yes, proof no. Second, what will happen if you don't see the squirrel first and he blows you off and ends up in full chase? Can you call him off the squirrel in that case? I've called my dog Connor off of chasing a rabbit (which he was overtaking and about to catch). I won't reiterate what this dog is like. There are people here who can attest to this particular dog's level of intensity and drive. There is simply no way I would have been able to call him off of that rabbit if he didn't know that there was a negative consequence to ignoring me.

I've said it here time and time again. Using a marker to train obedience behaviors is fine. However, it is not the best way to address self-rewarding and potentially dangerous problem behaviors, especially for most pet owners. I've even seen people suggest desensitization and positive reinforcement to address car chasing. What do we do in the months it may take to reduce the intensity of the behavior? What happens when the dog gets a chance to blow us off once and the behavior is rewarded and his desire fulfilled? After all the work is done, how do we proof to know for sure that he won't chase the car when given a chance? No, I'm sorry. In such a case I'm going to teach the dog that chasing the car is a very bad idea with as hard a correction as is necessary to end the behavior. THEN I'll recall and reward with a cookie/ball/tug toy.

I think training experience plays a major part in this debate. Bitesports require that the dog control and focus when absolutely peaked in drive. People who have never trained or handled a dog in such a state often believe that marker training is the ultimate solution and the best way to teach most, if not all behaviors. Well, when you take a dog that is loaded, and I mean LOADED in drive, and then ask him to perform obedience behaviors and ignore the decoy who is actively trying to agitate him, then you get to the crux of the problem. How do you entice the dog to stay with you when every fiber in his being wants to bite the decoy? It can be done if the dog has overriding food drive, but there are very few dogs like this. This is where we see the limits of marker training.

Once drive hits a certain level, the entire marker foundation goes right out the window (even if only for a split-second). This is when a physical correction is going to be necessary to get the dog back on track.

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Postby TheRedQueen » September 9th, 2007, 7:08 pm

Through reinforcement, huh? TJ has killed small animals before (including a chicken and squirrel)...he got to my house, saw my cats, and thought to himself "lunch!"

We tried corrections on the prong collar, we tried his "leave it" command, luckily I am able to down him on command...finally, he went after the cats one day when Greg was here....we happened to have just gotten back from training so he had his e-collar on....so, Greg set him up...when TJ went after the cat, Greg hit him with the electric...well, let's just say TJ can have the cats walk right up to him now....no avoidance....just has learned that it is NEVER acceptable to go after the cats....


Where did I say "positive" reinforcement? You reinforced a behavior with the e collar...you gave him heck for going after the cat...which reinforced the behavior you did like (collar stopped after he left the cat alone, right?). I never said "positive" reinforcement.

Yes. Absolutely. In fact, a hard correction is often the only thing that will work with a dog loaded in drive. Using a cookie and a clicker to get the dog back when his DNA is telling him to chase, kill, and eat the squirrel is the wrong approach.


Your original comment was that once the dog was chasing the squirrel, treats and hugs wouldn't work. Thus, my comment that if the dog is chasing a squirrel *with* the prong on, it won't help either. If the dog has gotten away from you, and is *not* wearing an e-collar, no training equipment will help you at that point.

A history of reinforcement will work...and yes, a cookie for leaving something alone can work, it works for my dogs and many others. With enough reinforcement, it can work. Just because it doesn't work for YOU, does not mean it doesn't work. I'm not saying that your methods don't work, why do you insist on telling me that mine don't? I'm just not sure why you keep saying that. I have yet to say that yours absolutely don't work. I've stated that it can go wrong in the wrong hands, or that there is the potential for abuse or mis-handling, but never have said that the methods won't work in the right hands. I know beautifully trained dogs that were trained using prong collars, and I know badly trained dogs that were trained in prong collars. Same as clicker trained dogs, I know good ones and bad ones. That does not make either method good or bad, they are just methods of getting to the desired behavior.

First, you cannot proof with positive methods. Teach yes, proof no.

Why not? Have you tried it?

I think training experience plays a major part in this debate. Bitesports require that the dog control and focus when absolutely peaked in drive.

So bitesports are the only way to learn how to train a dog? My years training experience shows nothing? Sheesh, thanks a lot.

I've taken a rescue dog that was terrified of people, and full of drive, and turned her into a fabulous flyball dog that can play anywhere, anytime. She ran today in a demo, her ball went into the crowd, she vaulted over a bunch of teenagers to get it and come back. But obviously, my methods are faulty. (and this is a dog that before, wanted to go after *people* not decoys) ;)

How do you entice the dog to stay with you when every fiber in his being wants to bite the decoy?

The same way I work with a dog that wants to go do anything else, work at a distance at first, until I can work that dog closer to the desired object/person/dog/etc. Maybe I have to walk away to gain the dog's attention, maybe I have to try something else. I haven't done bitesports, so I'm not sure what I would do, honestly. I'll admit that I don't know what I would do in that exact situation. I do know what I would do for dogs that were keyed up in flyball and wanted to chase another dog, I know what I would do for service dogs that flip out at the sight of bicycles, but no, I don't know what I would do in this exact situation. I do know that if bitesports required a physical correction for my dog, than it is not the sport for me. Simple as that. Life or death situation, I might resort to a physical correction, but not for a sport. And that is my opinion. Not yours. You can do what you want with your dog, and I won't bash you for it.
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
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Postby brooksybrooks1 » September 9th, 2007, 7:16 pm

yeah, a prong collar is definately gonna stop your dog. my dogs get positively reinforced all the time, and that helps a ton to teach and lock in behaviors, but it doesn't teach consequences. i do tre's advanced obedience almost 100% motivational, but every now and then he needs a correction, like, "hey, this is all fun and all, but don't blow me off buddy, you still have to do it." dogs are physical with eachother, they correct eachother, and they understand physical communication, not abuse, but physical communication. it doesn't hurt their feelings or your relationship unless you do it wrong.
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Postby pitbullmamaliz » September 9th, 2007, 9:11 pm

:to:

Okay, everybody take a deep breath and step away from the keyboard for a minute. This discussion is starting to get a little heated and almost derisive of other people's training methods. (wow, I sound like a mod!)

Obviously when it comes to training, none of us are ever going to be in 100% agreement - where would the fun be in that? Clicker training is going to work for some dogs, not others. Prongs/e-collars are going to work for some dogs, not others. I think there are two reasons we choose our training methods - 1. we have seen good results in other dogs trained with that method, and 2. (most important) it's the method that works FOR OUR INDIVIDUAL DOG. We all share the same ultimate objective - to have well-trained dogs that show how much time and effort we put into training them. I don't train with a prong so that I can say, "haha, my dog is better behaved than that clicker-trained dog." And others don't train with treats/clickers so that they can say, "haha, my dog is better trained than that prong-trained dog." We train with those methods because those are the methods our dogs respond best to.

We're all in this together people. Let's keep that in mind!

Group hug?
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Postby Marinepits » September 9th, 2007, 9:21 pm

:shock: Well said, Liz!
Never make someone a priority in your life when that someone treats you like an option.
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Postby katiek0417 » September 9th, 2007, 9:56 pm

On September 09 2007, 6:08 PM, TheRedQueen wrote:
Through reinforcement, huh? TJ has killed small animals before (including a chicken and squirrel)...he got to my house, saw my cats, and thought to himself "lunch!"

We tried corrections on the prong collar, we tried his "leave it" command, luckily I am able to down him on command...finally, he went after the cats one day when Greg was here....we happened to have just gotten back from training so he had his e-collar on....so, Greg set him up...when TJ went after the cat, Greg hit him with the electric...well, let's just say TJ can have the cats walk right up to him now....no avoidance....just has learned that it is NEVER acceptable to go after the cats....


Where did I say "positive" reinforcement? You reinforced a behavior with the e collar...you gave him heck for going after the cat...which reinforced the behavior you did like (collar stopped after he left the cat alone, right?). I never said "positive" reinforcement.


No, actually Greg positively punished the behavior.

TJ took after the cat, TJ got shocked.

That's positive punishment: giving of something aversive to decrease the likelihood of a behavior...

Reinforcement always increases a behavior...I can cite these definitions for you...
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

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Postby TheRedQueen » September 9th, 2007, 10:23 pm

yeah, a prong collar is definately gonna stop your dog.


I'm still not clear on how a prong collar is going to help you recall your dog, if it's off leash and running after a squirrel?

dogs are physical with eachother, they correct eachother, and they understand physical communication, not abuse, but physical communication.


And I'm still not sure why you all think I'm 100% positive...when I've stated that I'm not. No one is. I just don't use physical corrections in the way of prongs and choke chains and e-collars.

My guys know I'm not a dog, so while they might take physical corrections from each other, why would they take them from me?
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
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Postby TheRedQueen » September 9th, 2007, 10:24 pm

On September 09 2007, 8:11 PM, pitbullmamaliz wrote::to:

Okay, everybody take a deep breath and step away from the keyboard for a minute. This discussion is starting to get a little heated and almost derisive of other people's training methods. (wow, I sound like a mod!)

Obviously when it comes to training, none of us are ever going to be in 100% agreement - where would the fun be in that? Clicker training is going to work for some dogs, not others. Prongs/e-collars are going to work for some dogs, not others. I think there are two reasons we choose our training methods - 1. we have seen good results in other dogs trained with that method, and 2. (most important) it's the method that works FOR OUR INDIVIDUAL DOG. We all share the same ultimate objective - to have well-trained dogs that show how much time and effort we put into training them. I don't train with a prong so that I can say, "haha, my dog is better behaved than that clicker-trained dog." And others don't train with treats/clickers so that they can say, "haha, my dog is better trained than that prong-trained dog." We train with those methods because those are the methods our dogs respond best to.

We're all in this together people. Let's keep that in mind!

Group hug?


Very well said. :)

I get rather testy when I've got a migraine...
"I don't have any idea if my dogs respect me or not, but they're greedy and I have their stuff." -- Patty Ruzzo

"Dogs don't want to control people. They want to control their own lives." --John Bradshaw
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