michelle, don't get mad at me.
i don't think i'm being rude or accusatory or out of line.
also- for the general dog owning public, i think they are horrible. unless you are a professional or are trained by a very responsible professional, you WILL mess up your dog with one.
i just don't like how free with them some people are, and how they don't realize the downfalls of using them like a shortcut or see what they are doing to their dogs.
so it is a correction then, just a nagging correction, like ivan talks about in his videos, only he uses a pinch collar.
So using the boss example...if you have a big project due at the end of the week, and your boss said that you'd get a $100 bonus if you got it done in time...wouldn't that make you work even harder/faster, to work for that reward?
Dogs can be the same way...they'll behave on leash or with a certain collar on, but once it's off...all bets are off.
On September 05 2007, 12:54 PM, mnp13 wrote:So using the boss example...if you have a big project due at the end of the week, and your boss said that you'd get a $100 bonus if you got it done in time...wouldn't that make you work even harder/faster, to work for that reward?
Yes, but what if there was no reward, but no punishment for not getting it done? Yes, lack of reward is a punishment, but it's not quite the same as your boss taking $100 from your paycheck. What if you didn't get it done, but you found out where he kept the $100 stashed and took it anyway? That's the equivilant of a dog performing a self-rewarding behavior instead of looking for your reward.
For me, this is the core downfall of training with only a removal of a reward as a punishment. If the dog can self-reward - chase a cat, bark his head off, counter surf - then it may not care that it didn't get your reward. The more pig headed dogs really couldn't care less, and the day that correctionless behavior is put to the real test the dog may or may not pass and you could end up with a dead dog. Case in point - you could work your butt off to stop your dog from crittering, and then one day the dog just can't resist chasing the neighbor's cat, the pursuit goes into the neighbor's yard... and in New York it is legal to shoot a dog that is threatening your property, and cats are property. I don't feel this is an extreme example, and it has happened.
Am I saying that it doesn't work? No, not at all. It definately takes a lot longer and with some dogs can prove to be very unreliable (like any method.) It's just a different means to an end. And to give credit where it is due, unlike most trainers who work "your way" I don't feel like you are pulling the holier-than-thou routine.
On September 05 2007, 11:03 AM, TheRedQueen wrote:On September 05 2007, 10:51 AM, katiek0417 wrote:On September 05 2007, 10:17 AM, brooksybrooks1 wrote:so katie, when you say motivational, you mean you're using it for a correction just like you would do with a leash, you don't mean you are shocking the dog as a "stimulation" before or as you tell them to do something, right?
It's NOT a correction. A correction is a quick event. A pop with the prong collar...takes a second...a hard correction with the e-collar takes a second....
This is ongoing until she does what I want. Right now we're just "shaping" the behaviors...letting her know that the discomfort goes away as soon as she does what I want...once she fully understands that, we'll start putting in the commands. So, she gets command, and as she does, the tapping will start...sooner she does what I say, the sooner the tapping stops...
Think about it this way:
Let's say you have a job where you constantly have tasks that must be done. Your boss continuously nags you about whether you've finished the task. Is the nagging painful and quick? or is it ongoing and frustrating, and a pain in the a$$? For most people, it's the second thing. So, you finally finish the task, and your boss stops nagging you. Ahhh, relief. A good thing. The following week, your boss gives you another task. You remember that the last time you put it off, your boss started nagging you, which was annoying. So, this time, you get it done much faster. You were MOTIVATED to do the task because you wanted to avoid being nagged...
Same concepts, except a dog doesn't understand when you sit there and verbally nag them, right? So, you need to use another method to nag them...that's really all you're using the e-collar for...a nag...to get them to do something, and to get them to do it faster...
I prefer to motivate in other ways...I'm not sure how this nagging way works for any dog well.
So using the boss example...if you have a big project due at the end of the week, and your boss said that you'd get a $100 bonus if you got it done in time...wouldn't that make you work even harder/faster, to work for that reward? I'd prefer that to being nagged all week, and working hard just to avoid the nagging. Eventually I'd probably quit (as my sister did when she had a bad nagging type job like that with Boy Scouts)...and find a better job. Why put up with nagging at all? But if I got random rewards (the first case would be bribery) that I didn't expect...I'd work pretty darn hard, with the idea that I might get something good.
How many people speed in their cars? I've gotten speeding tickets many times over the years...and yet it doesn't stop me from speeding. That I have to slow down for cops on the road, doesn't stop me. I just get better at avoiding punishement (spotting cops on the road). But I tell you what...if we got random pull-overs to be given $$$ for driving well, I'd slow down! If speed cameras got pictures of my car, just so they could send me a check for driving slower...I'd be all about driving slower!
Treats, play, etc don't work for some dogs. Alternatively, different people have different methods. I have seen this method work very well for people. As long as it's used correctly. I mainly use positive reinforcement with my dogs...but I've tried using PR with Sacha...and even if she gets the tastiest of treats, she would still rather blow me off sometimes...not all the time. But sometimes. And on a trial field, she can't blow me off...b/c if she does, she doesn't title.
Your example of a $100 bonus is great...But guess what? I know plenty of ADHD students who don't care about the incentives of extra credit for doing something early (or even on time). So, is positive reinforcement doing them any good? No. So, you find other methods. I'm extremely ADHD...money doesn't work for me...but my boss nagging me makes me get things done. Why? Because I don't want to hear it. Even if she offered me money, I really wouldn't care...why? I don't need it. I don't want it...so, is it motivating me? No. In the same way, she's not going to fire me b/c it's really not up to her (not my immediate boss, anyway). So, again, no repercussions...but hearing her nag me is like fingernails on blackboard.
I am simply stating why this method works for some people. If you don't want to use this method (or an e-collar, in general), then don't. But don't assume that the method won't work.
One way dogs can be taught to down: pressure right above the shoulders. Not enough to hurt, just pressure. The dog goes down to release the pressure. When the dog is down, the pressure is completely gone. You say "down" start pressure, when dog gets down, you release. Next time you say "down" the dog is more likely to get down faster. INCREASE behavior. I didn't punish the dog for going down. I didn't even punish him for NOT going down...I just made it more likely that he was going to choose to do it on his own when I told him to. Why, because, as I said before, the removal of the discomfort become a reward in and of itself.
redqueen- getting squirted at or having thrown water on you IS a physical correction, just a low level one, and one where the handler isn't attached to the dog in some form or another. the noodles sound more like they are a distraction, to quickly break the dog's attention from whatever naughty mindset it was in, than a punishment, or at least that's how i would perceive it, that is unless you are hitting the actual dog with it, which it doesn't sound like you are. i wish the world worked in a way where i always or even randomly got patted on the back and rewarded for doing things right and only prevented from or occasionally yelled at for doing things wrong, but unfortunately that's not the case, as we all know! that would be so awesome, to get pulled over and given a check! i think there's a reason things don't work like that in the real world, so i'm not gonna have my dogs live in a world like that either. i'de really like to SEE your methods and how your dogs consistently perform, i think it would settle a lot of this everybody trying to type out their training philosophies. however, i will say that in this facility where there are obviously lots of different methods being used, if you're seeing dogs that are yanking on their pinch collars after class and what not, it's being taught incorrectly or the students aren't following the advice of the trainer, because when trained properly that shouldn't ever be the case, and has not been my experience with it. the same goes for E COLLARS, like it or not, they work when used a certain way, and if they aren't working, they aren't using them effectively. that being said, just because any one particular method "works" doesn't mean it's good.
On September 05 2007, 2:24 PM, brooksybrooks1 wrote:p.s.: these threads get so touchy! i don't think anybody is trying to tell anybody else that their method is THE method or that other methods don't work. Redqueen was right, this post was started with intentions of hearing people's opinions and weighing in on them, that's still all i want when i ask those questions. i'm just trying to understand it, pros and cons, etc. so i don't think there's any need for anyone to be defensive about their training methods....
On September 05 2007, 2:17 PM, brooksybrooks1 wrote:katie- sorry, i'm not trying to insult your intelligence or tell you what you're doing. i guess it's semantics, i know what you mean, i'm just still trying to figure out if you are shocking before or after you give the command, or if you only start doing it if they don't immediately do as you ask.
On September 05 2007, 6:05 PM, Wyldmoonwoman wrote:I happen to own a dog that does not respond with pure positive reinforcement and ever since I learned to use corrections her behavior improved immensely. I tried for months to get my dog to walk on a flat collar with treats and praise and had absolutely no success, so I went to a choke collar and she would strangle herself, then I tried the halti and she learned she could tighten her neck muscles and defeat the purpose, when I went to the prong, a couple good hard jerks got the message across and she walks beautifully now, she does not like being corrected and that was the part of the training that I .
I read the kohler book after trying pure positive training and started to incorporate some of the techniques in the book and saw even more improvement when I add a correction to the positive reinforcement...teach the command in a positive manner, correct for not following the command. I see an e-collar as a way to administer a correction in the same way that I would use a prong collar in a remote situation, ie off leash and have been researching getting one to proof off leash recall.
I learned alot from this thread and think that an e-collar is an option to proof a learned behavior.
On September 05 2007, 8:16 PM, katiek0417 wrote:[
Excellent post...but please do yourself a favor, and find an experienced trainer to teach her how to use it correctly!!!
On September 06 2007, 12:57 PM, brooksybrooks1 wrote:it's sad because his students are STRONG supporters of his work, but they don't realize what they are missing out on, they are just impressed with his dogs robotic obedience
On September 06 2007, 4:17 PM, babyreba wrote:OK, so since the SMS methods were introduced to this thread, I have to ask if anyone knows: What is the deal with using the 2 e-collars at once on the dogs? I've watched a bunch of his vids, and in some he's got two collars around the dog's neck and in others he's got one on the neck and one strapped to the dog's belly.
Is there some kind of training philosophy where this is common? Or is this unique to his training technique?
On September 06 2007, 5:24 PM, amazincc wrote:Don't some people also put on dummy-collars to keep a dog from getting ... collar-smart, is it? Or are we talking about this one particular trainer using two real ones?
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