man, i think that even if it worked to strap an ecollar to a dogs d***, it's not worth it. i wouldn't want to do that to my dog. just because they can or will handle doesn't mean they should, in my opinion. it's kinda like the sch ha (is that the right one?) where they will have a dog run 12miles next to a bike.
On September 08 2007, 1:46 AM, DemoDick wrote:man, i think that even if it worked to strap an ecollar to a dogs d***, it's not worth it. i wouldn't want to do that to my dog. just because they can or will handle doesn't mean they should, in my opinion. it's kinda like the sch ha (is that the right one?) where they will have a dog run 12miles next to a bike.
First, that's not a fair comparison, as there is no increased risk of injury by putting an e-collar around a dogs flanks as opposed to around his neck. The stimulus is the same, or even less, as the area is more sensitive. It just sounds more extreme. Second, it is up to the handlers to condition the dog to the endurance test before trial time. A well conditioned dog can handle it just fine, but a dog relying on drive alone is going to tear himself up. Responsible upland hunters know to condition their dog's pads before hunting season and do so. Just because some do not does not make the test or task unfair.
I think the e-collar has the potential to create more avoidance than other correction methods for a very simple reason. There is no physical relationship between the dog and handler when the correction is delivered, and this can scare the hell out of the dog. Dogs readily learn and understand what a leash is and how is can be used to deliver a correction. Leash pop=unpleasant correction. But simply strapping an e-collar on the dog without building an association between the electrical stimulus and a physical correction that he already understands (and more importantly, understands how to avoid) can often push a dog into avoidance. Instead of instantly recognizing that he was just corrected and adjusting his behavior, the dog thinks "What the hell was THAT and when is it going to happen again?!?" Meanwhile he is still performing incorrectly and will likely get another jolt. The dog feels elevated stress and unless he figures out that he is being corrected it will get worse. This is, IMO, why many people don't like e-collars and think that they produce more avoidance than other methods of correction.
Coupling a low-level electrical correction with a physical leash correction delivered at exactly the same time seems like the best way to introduce the e-collar. If I choose to use an e-collar with my next dog this is the method I will use, as it more clearly teaches the dog that the electrical correction is the same as a leash correction and is just as easy to avoid. But I actually like consciously avoiding the e-collar in training because doing things the old fashioned way forces me to learn more about behaviors.
Demo Dick
Or if I get to the job and its something I don't want to do, no amount of pay or bonus is going to make me do it!
The collar is a tool with many uses and gives the trainer yet another tool too his/her bag of tricks. If you've never used it, don't knock it! If you've never witnessed someones techniques first hand don't knock it b/c someone else does.
On September 08 2007, 5:35 PM, GregMK9 wrote:OK, I guess saying nothing was a little strong. But to this day my boss has been unable able to motivate me if I don't want or feel like doing it!
And yes, dogs require less pay, but it's also possible for the dog to find something else more rewarding and blow you off.
And yes, an idiot can ruin a good dog with an e-collar. But an idiot can also ruin a dog with a pinch collar, choke chain or even a news paper! Fact of the matter is any idiot can ruin any dog with any method.
I especially love the heavy handed idiots that decide they want to do protection with there dog after they've smacked it on the nose all it's life!
From what I'm gathering people are forming opinions on something they've never used, but knows somebody, who knows somebody who's great uncle ruined a dog. (OK that's an exaggeration). I just find it funny, that's all.
I'm not trying to change peoples opinions. It is what it is! I just know what works for me, my club members and my clients. And as long as my dogs love what they are doing and don't look beat upon in obedience, I'm happy.
But, I still think maybe choke chains and prong collars could at least come with a booklet or something that tells you how to use them properly, at least have a way to correctly gauge the size for your dog. Or maybe pet stores could put them behind glass, and you have to be told how to use them first. I dunno...wishful thinking. At least head halters, front clip harnesses and e-collars come with directions.
"Caution: Hot dogs and hugs are not the solution to all behavioral/training problems. Please don't discover this the hard way when your dog gets run over chasing a squirrel as you try to bait him back to you with a cookie."
On September 09 2007, 7:06 AM, TheRedQueen wrote:"Caution: Hot dogs and hugs are not the solution to all behavioral/training problems. Please don't discover this the hard way when your dog gets run over chasing a squirrel as you try to bait him back to you with a cookie."
And a prong collar will help?
No, a continuous history of reinforcement will help you get your dog back, or to keep your dog from chasing that squirrel...regardless of method used.
(Xander is a squirrel chaser, and I used positive methods to *proof* him around them, before he ever got let off leash around them. He will call off a squirrel if I don't see it first and get his attention.)
And a prong collar will help?
No, a continuous history of reinforcement will help you get your dog back, or to keep your dog from chasing that squirrel...regardless of method used
(Xander is a squirrel chaser, and I used positive methods to *proof* him around them, before he ever got let off leash around them. He will call off a squirrel if I don't see it first and get his attention.)
Through reinforcement, huh? TJ has killed small animals before (including a chicken and squirrel)...he got to my house, saw my cats, and thought to himself "lunch!"
We tried corrections on the prong collar, we tried his "leave it" command, luckily I am able to down him on command...finally, he went after the cats one day when Greg was here....we happened to have just gotten back from training so he had his e-collar on....so, Greg set him up...when TJ went after the cat, Greg hit him with the electric...well, let's just say TJ can have the cats walk right up to him now....no avoidance....just has learned that it is NEVER acceptable to go after the cats....
Yes. Absolutely. In fact, a hard correction is often the only thing that will work with a dog loaded in drive. Using a cookie and a clicker to get the dog back when his DNA is telling him to chase, kill, and eat the squirrel is the wrong approach.
First, you cannot proof with positive methods. Teach yes, proof no.
I think training experience plays a major part in this debate. Bitesports require that the dog control and focus when absolutely peaked in drive.
How do you entice the dog to stay with you when every fiber in his being wants to bite the decoy?
On September 09 2007, 6:08 PM, TheRedQueen wrote:Through reinforcement, huh? TJ has killed small animals before (including a chicken and squirrel)...he got to my house, saw my cats, and thought to himself "lunch!"
We tried corrections on the prong collar, we tried his "leave it" command, luckily I am able to down him on command...finally, he went after the cats one day when Greg was here....we happened to have just gotten back from training so he had his e-collar on....so, Greg set him up...when TJ went after the cat, Greg hit him with the electric...well, let's just say TJ can have the cats walk right up to him now....no avoidance....just has learned that it is NEVER acceptable to go after the cats....
Where did I say "positive" reinforcement? You reinforced a behavior with the e collar...you gave him heck for going after the cat...which reinforced the behavior you did like (collar stopped after he left the cat alone, right?). I never said "positive" reinforcement.
yeah, a prong collar is definately gonna stop your dog.
dogs are physical with eachother, they correct eachother, and they understand physical communication, not abuse, but physical communication.
On September 09 2007, 8:11 PM, pitbullmamaliz wrote::to:
Okay, everybody take a deep breath and step away from the keyboard for a minute. This discussion is starting to get a little heated and almost derisive of other people's training methods. (wow, I sound like a mod!)
Obviously when it comes to training, none of us are ever going to be in 100% agreement - where would the fun be in that? Clicker training is going to work for some dogs, not others. Prongs/e-collars are going to work for some dogs, not others. I think there are two reasons we choose our training methods - 1. we have seen good results in other dogs trained with that method, and 2. (most important) it's the method that works FOR OUR INDIVIDUAL DOG. We all share the same ultimate objective - to have well-trained dogs that show how much time and effort we put into training them. I don't train with a prong so that I can say, "haha, my dog is better behaved than that clicker-trained dog." And others don't train with treats/clickers so that they can say, "haha, my dog is better trained than that prong-trained dog." We train with those methods because those are the methods our dogs respond best to.
We're all in this together people. Let's keep that in mind!
Group hug?
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