My brother the *BEEP*!

This forum is all about training and behavior. Everything from potty training to working titles!

Postby randi81 » June 14th, 2007, 11:58 pm

I was out running errands for my mom today, and because my younger (he's 23) brother Kevin was home, I didn't crate Saydee. Kevin is one of those ignorant people who thinks that ALL APBT's should be tough, big, beefy, and worst of all, he thinks they should love to fight. After 6 months of me screaming at him (not while Saydee's there) to stop playing so rough with my freaking dog, I would assume he got the message. He hasn't been playing as hard with her as he used to.

Well, I come home tonight and there is a trail of blood dots going from the living room carpet, through the dining room, out to the kitchen sink. :shock: My heart sank, and I KNEW what had happened. Saydee bit him. :( I immediately layed into him, he KNOWS I hate hate HATE when he provokes her to this point. It took everything I had not to drop kick his teeth out of his skull. He starts saying, "I'm okay, it's not that bad, we were just playing...." :pissed:

I was like... THAT IS SOOOOOOOOO NOT THE FREAKING POINT!!!!! Other than not allowing him to play with her like that (yeah, THAT obviously worked!), WTF else am I supposed to do? Thank God he didn't need stitches.. it's mostly just superficial wounds. What do I do now? Is this incident going to completely alter her, or am I making a mountain out of a mole hill? Any and all feedback would be greatly appreciated... just don't flame me.

ETA -- I just want to make clear by Kevin saying they were just playing.. it means he was purposely trying to get her agitated. She has a spot on the inside of her thigh that she DOES NOT like touched, and he purposely grabs it, just is very, very rough and hard with her. He's an effing d!ckhead.
-Randi.

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body; but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, wine in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
User avatar
randi81
Full of Bully
 
Posts: 1836
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Postby amazincc » June 15th, 2007, 12:45 am

Omg... is Saydee alright?
I am sooooo not flaming you for having an ignoramus for a brother... :hug3:
Anyway - here's the "short" story on Mick... Mick was always very distrustful of strangers, but I had gotten him to a point (at 9/10 months old) where he would be "cautiously optimistic" towards other people.
I had a "friend" who worked as a maintenance guy in my building and whom Mickey (after long and slow introductions) finally started to trust/like...
So, one afternoon we were in the hallway and said friends co-worker shot off his mouth about my "dangerous" dog, and ex-friend was bragging about how "the pit knew who is boss"... and stepped in front of us while the co-worker started to pound on a door and kept yelling: "Get him, Mickey... get him!" The ex-friend easily weighted 250 pounds and stood 6'3 feet tall, stepped towards us like Hulk Hogan on crack. Mick lunged and went for him... and managed to "pinch" him through the shirt. The ex-friend got a nasty infection out of the deal, and my dog was quaranteened at home for 10 days, and then deemed "not dangerous to the public" (I posted about this in another thread).
However - he has never been the same after that and I have a very fear-aggressive dog on my hands now. Needless to say, I haven't practiced "don't lunge at strangers" w/him because I can't take a chance on him biting someone else. I don't know if he is truly HA or not, but I so, so wish I had gotten a qualified behaviorist/trainer involved when I first realized that he would not hesitate to "defend" himself or us, however misguided that "defense" may be. As it was, I kept him away from people and situations that stress him (I know... stupid of me, but hindsight and all that...), and I now know that I did him more harm than good.
So - what I suggest to you is:
1. Slap the snot out of your brother!!!
2. Don't leave him alone/unsupervised w/Saydee... ever.
3. Make your brother practice NILIF w/Saydee for the next few days (if you do that already, that is...), just so Saydee knows that biting wasn't okay and that humans must be respected, no matter what. I am NOT saying that your brother didn't deserve what he got, but the dog doesn't need to know that... :D
4. Don't isolate her from other people out of fear that she might do it again... (my HUGE mistake w/my own dog!)
5. Slap the snot out of your brother again!!!
6. Crate your brother when you can't take Saydee w/you and they're home alone.

I hate to even post #3... I hate that the dog needs to suffer the consequences because people are stupid. But if you don't want Saydee to adopt this behavior as her ultimate "out", you need to curb it right now... she just "learned" that biting Kevin made him leave her alone.
I so don't blame her, but it could easily become a "bad habit" next time she perceives any danger to herself, especially at places like the vets' office.
I am really sorry that she experienced pain at the hands of someone who is supposed to be part of her family... I think that "knowing" the offender made it much easier for my own dog to lunge at "strangers", since they "aren't in his pack" and therefore don't demand/deserve respect in the first place, so to speak.
User avatar
amazincc
Jessica & Mick
 
Posts: 9814
Location: Holding them both in my heart.

Postby DemoDick » June 15th, 2007, 1:14 am

3. Make your brother practice NILIF w/Saydee for the next few days (if you do that already, that is...), just so Saydee knows that biting wasn't okay and that humans must be respected, no matter what. I am NOT saying that your brother didn't deserve what he got, but the dog doesn't need to know that...


It's obvious that this guy doesn't listen or respect randi's wishes, so I wouldn't count on him to do NILIF. Also, it isn't going to make any difference anyway. It sounds like the dog got pushed and reacted by pushing back. I like that in a dog.

The only thing you need to do is make sure your brother has no interaction with your dog. He was disrespectful to you and cannot be trusted.

If he wants to play rough with a dog I have one for him. He's in my avatar.

Demo Dick
"My first priority will be to reinstate the assault weapons ban PERMANENTLY as soon as I take office...I intend to work with Congress on a national no carry law, 1 gun a month purchase limits, and bans on all semi-automatic guns."-Barack Obama
"When in doubt, whip it out."-Nuge
User avatar
DemoDick
They Like to Fondle My Gun
 
Posts: 1910
Location: New York

Postby amazincc » June 15th, 2007, 1:25 am

It sounds like the dog got pushed and reacted by pushing back. I like that in a dog.
Demo Dick


I like that in a dog, too... but isn't everyone always up in arms about "giving the breed a bad name" when a dog (especially a pit) bites a human?
I am really confused here...
I was told repeatedly that a "sound" pit bull won't bite a person, no matter what! And that, if one did, he/she should be euthanized.
So, what gives? There are instances when it's acceptable behavior?

Randi... I'm not talking about Saydee!
Just don't understand the double-standard... :|
User avatar
amazincc
Jessica & Mick
 
Posts: 9814
Location: Holding them both in my heart.

Postby DemoDick » June 15th, 2007, 1:41 am

I like that in a dog, too... but isn't everyone always up in arms about "giving the breed a bad name" when a dog (especially a pit) bites a human?


Not everyone thinks this way. I believe that the context of the bite is everything. Why put a dog down for biting a burglar or mugger?

I was told repeatedly that a "sound" pit bull won't bite a person, no matter what! And that, if one did, he/she should be euthanized.


That's pure breed mythology. Pit Bulls are dogs first. The argument is that in the days of "legitimate" dog fighting all man biters were put down (which isn't true anyway- Chinaman comes immediately to mind). Every dog has a limit to what they will tolerate. When that limit is reached the dog will either try to retreat from the irritant or push it away.

I have a sound dog with solid nerves who was trying to bite the decoy the first day of bitework training. He's a Pit Bull. I'm sure plenty of people would have put him down for not fitting into their preconception of what a Pit Bull is or should be. Waste of a great dog. Context is everything.

Demo Dick
Last edited by DemoDick on June 15th, 2007, 1:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
"My first priority will be to reinstate the assault weapons ban PERMANENTLY as soon as I take office...I intend to work with Congress on a national no carry law, 1 gun a month purchase limits, and bans on all semi-automatic guns."-Barack Obama
"When in doubt, whip it out."-Nuge
User avatar
DemoDick
They Like to Fondle My Gun
 
Posts: 1910
Location: New York

Postby amazincc » June 15th, 2007, 1:44 am

I am totally shocked now - in a good way! Thanks for clarifying...
User avatar
amazincc
Jessica & Mick
 
Posts: 9814
Location: Holding them both in my heart.

Postby katiek0417 » June 15th, 2007, 5:57 am

On June 15 2007, 12:14 AM, DemoDick wrote:
It's obvious that this guy doesn't listen or respect randi's wishes, so I wouldn't count on him to do NILIF. Also, it isn't going to make any difference anyway. It sounds like the dog got pushed and reacted by pushing back. I like that in a dog.

The only thing you need to do is make sure your brother has no interaction with your dog. He was disrespectful to you and cannot be trusted.

If he wants to play rough with a dog I have one for him. He's in my avatar.

Demo Dick


What he said (even the part about I have a dog in the avatar he can play rough with)... :wink:
"Rumor has it, compulsion is evil."

Katrina
Sacha CGC - Dumb Lab
Nisha CGC, PDC, PSA TC, PSA 1 - Crazy Malinois
Drusilla SLUT- Pet
Nemo - Dual-Purpose Narcotics
Cy TC, PSA 1, PSA 2, 2009 PSA Level 3 National Champion
Axo - Psycho Puppy
Rocky - RIP My Baby Boy
User avatar
katiek0417
pointy ear hoarder
 
Posts: 6280
Location: Glen Burnie, MD

Postby Malli » June 15th, 2007, 8:24 am

I also have a dog he can play rough with :twisted:

As was mentioned, every dog has their limit. I think the extreme of the myth that "Pit Bulls shouldn't bite people, under any circumstances" is that Pit Bulls are much more tolerant of rough handling, pain, and stressful environments then other breeds tend to be; In general the breed/breed group has a higher tolerance for all these things, but within that each dog has its own "threshold", so to speak, or at least thats what I understand from my knowledge and experience...
compared to the other breeds I see at work, I definitely have to say that Pit Bulls (and some other "working" lines of dogs) have higher pain tolerence, as well as that "need to please" that we all love :)

My own dog would not hesitate to defend me if I were threatened, I could never see that as a fault of character or temperment, hes just protecting his own. He could be pushed to bite out of pain, but his threshold is quite high and he is generally(leaving out if they decide to get physical with me) so good with people that it would take quite a bit of button pressing. That said, I think its very easy for "high drive" dogs to get too revved up in physical play? (esp. when that is combined with pain)

I'd have to agree that you should just keep your brother away from your dog, idiots don't deserve the privilage.
I can only please one person per day. Today is not your day, tomorrow doesn't look good either.
_______________________________________
"You didn't know of the magical powers of the break stick? It's up there with genies and Harry Potter as far as magic levels go." SisMorphine 01/07/07
User avatar
Malli
E-I-E-I-O!
 
Posts: 6341
Location: CANADA EH?

Postby mnp13 » June 15th, 2007, 8:36 am

For me, it's pretty easy, I put myself in the dogs position.

You know your brother tormented her, and from past experience, it sounds like he is relentless. Every dog (and every person!) has a breaking point. Some dogs will never ever reach it, some dogs reach it too fast.

If I stand next to you and poke you over and over and over and over and over and you tell me to stop and I keep poking you over and over and over and over and over and you move away and I follow you and keep poking you over and over and over and over and over and you yell at me but I keep poking you over and over and over and over and over, at some point you are going to back hand me, and I am going to deserve it.

Your dog had had enough and probably tried to get that across to your brother more than once. She finally bit him. I can't say that I blame her.

That said, amazincc has a good point:
she just "learned" that biting Kevin made him leave her alone.

And you need to keep that in mind.

Yes, you are going to have people telling you to "do the right thing." Personally, I'm not one of them. There is a case for both sides (just like everything) and I'm sure you'll hear both!
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17234
Location: Rochester, NY

Postby Wyldmoonwoman » June 15th, 2007, 9:05 am

I don't have much to add, but I really think that you should never leave your brother alone with your dog, ever....

There definitely is a possibility that Saydee may try this again because agression can be a learned behavior....

I believe that there are no free bites for a pit bull...mainly because our breed has a bad reputation and dogs that bite should be removed from the population, however I do look at the circumstances and if your dog was provoked, then the bite probably was self preservation.
"If I were not a man, I would like to be a bird. As I am a man, I do the next best thing, and ride a bicycle." -- Rev. Maltie, a cyclist in the late 1800s
User avatar
Wyldmoonwoman
Full of Bully
 
Posts: 2029
Location: Upstate, NY

Postby maberi » June 15th, 2007, 10:35 am

Perfectly said, my thoughts exactly. Any person or dog has their breaking point.

Make sure to keep your brother on a leash when he comes over from now on.

On June 15 2007, mnp13 wrote:For me, it's pretty easy, I put myself in the dogs position.

You know your brother tormented her, and from past experience, it sounds like he is relentless. Every dog (and every person!) has a breaking point. Some dogs will never ever reach it, some dogs reach it too fast.

If I stand next to you and poke you over and over and over and over and over and you tell me to stop and I keep poking you over and over and over and over and over and you move away and I follow you and keep poking you over and over and over and over and over and you yell at me but I keep poking you over and over and over and over and over, at some point you are going to back hand me, and I am going to deserve it.

Your dog had had enough and probably tried to get that across to your brother more than once. She finally bit him. I can't say that I blame her.

That said, amazincc has a good point:
she just "learned" that biting Kevin made him leave her alone.

And you need to keep that in mind.

Yes, you are going to have people telling you to "do the right thing." Personally, I'm not one of them. There is a case for both sides (just like everything) and I'm sure you'll hear both!
User avatar
maberi
I Save My Empty Calories For The Bottle
 
Posts: 2781
Location: rochester, ny

Postby randi81 » June 15th, 2007, 10:41 am

Thanks for all the quick responses guys! Saydee is fine, she's loving on Kevin as if nothing happened. I sure as hell don't blame her for biting him.. I've smacked the crap out of people for far less! First off, I'd like to add that my brother will A) leave Saydee alone (as far as his "playing"), or B) find a new place to live. Simple as that.

Like Demo said, I highly doubt Kevin will participate in the NILIF like the rest of us do.. he's pretty much proved that he has no respect for anyone.

As far as
"I was told repeatedly that a "sound" pit bull won't bite a person, no matter what! And that, if one did, he/she should be euthanized."
I understand exactly what you're saying, as I've been told the same thing (waiting for Anthony to chime in :wink: ), but this was definitely a provoked bite. I spoke to my neighbor the cop (who also happens to be deathly afraid of ALL dogs, not just mine), and he said that in the eyes of PA state law, Saydee's bite was warranted. It's not like she was out in public, offleash, terrorizing random people. The thought of euthing never even crossed my mind.

There definitely is a possibility that Saydee may try this again because agression can be a learned behavior....

And that is something that I will 100% surely keep an eye on. :)

Thanks again, all!
-Randi.

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body; but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, wine in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
User avatar
randi81
Full of Bully
 
Posts: 1836
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Postby mnp13 » June 15th, 2007, 10:53 am

On June 15 2007, 10:41, randi81 wrote: Saydee is fine, she's loving on Kevin as if nothing happened.


Please don't let Kevin get within 10 feet of Saydee for at least twice as long as it takes for his bite to completely heel. If you are not in the room with them, then take the dog with you. I wouldn't trust him for one second to leave her alone - and her threashold with him is probably lower now than it was before, and will likely lower more if he does it again.

he's pretty much proved that he has no respect for anyone.

he's just remembering to behave while his hand still hurts.

Malli, Demo, Katrina and myself all have dogs that will school him in dog manners if you'd like to ship him to any of us! Please make sure he's updated on all of his shots. :twisted:

Katrina, I think he should play with Jue first.
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17234
Location: Rochester, NY

Postby randi81 » June 15th, 2007, 10:59 am

On June 15 2007, 10:53 AM, mnp13 wrote:Malli, Demo, Katrina and myself all have dogs that will school him in dog manners if you'd like to ship him to any of us! Please make sure he's updated on all of his shots. :twisted:

Katrina, I think he should play with Jue first.


I actually think he would LOVE that! When I was planning on going to the PSA trials in Baltimore, he begged me to tag along... so yes. Maybe he should be taught a lesson. But you know he is so freakin whacked that he'd probably be like a kid in a candy store. :crazy:

Please don't let Kevin get within 10 feet of Saydee for at least twice as long as it takes for his bite to completely heel. If you are not in the room with them, then take the dog with you. I wouldn't trust him for one second to leave her alone - and her threashold with him is probably lower now than it was before, and will likely lower more if he does it again.

We're all in the same room, and if he ever tries anything with her again, I'll knock his teeth straight. Not to mention how pissed Cory is at him for all this. Cory is 6'2" 280.. and scary. Kevin is 5'6", maybe 140 LOL.
-Randi.

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well preserved body; but rather to skid in sideways, chocolate in one hand, wine in the other, body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming "WOO HOO what a ride!"
User avatar
randi81
Full of Bully
 
Posts: 1836
Location: Harrisburg, PA

Postby peonns » June 15th, 2007, 11:02 am

Not much to add except dogs need to learn everything.If you have a dog that is raised from a pup and is used to playing rough they learn to play rough but not bite,they will mouth and all and you usually end up with scratches from the nails but the dogs know that once they have your hand that there is no need to apply any pressure.JMO
God hates a coward
User avatar
peonns
Snot Nose Bully Pup
 
Posts: 205
Location: Vancouver Island

Postby Jenn » June 15th, 2007, 11:18 am

On Friday, 15 June 2007, 10:02 AM, peonns wrote:Not much to add except dogs need to learn everything.If you have a dog that is raised from a pup and is used to playing rough they learn to play rough but not bite,they will mouth and all and you usually end up with scratches from the nails but the dogs know that once they have your hand that there is no need to apply any pressure.JMO


Yes but what dog has the capability to rationalize "I'm going to bite this smurfer and I'll gladly pay the consequences." They don't. Playing is one thing, the mindset is different, they are excited, they know it's play, they learn through repeated behavior from puppy hood that you don't bite the poo out of your owner. Most puppies of pet owners are reprimanded from day one for too rough play, and taught how to play appropriately. I've had scratches, bites, cuts from puppy play, even an accidental finger grabbed during a game of tug. It's never intentional, but it's happened.

This is something totally different, this is a dog as story told forced to defend itself. Pinched, poked, intentionally to get her peed off. Just like blowing in a dog's face, people KNOW it pisses them off, yet it's "funny" to watch them get all mad. BULL! It's not funny, it's horrible.
Humans KNOW that if your mad and punch some butthead in the face, there will more than likely be consequences. Cops may be called, someone may press charges, if at work you will lose your job. It's a given for us. What dog can rationalize that if they defend themself they will have to pay the consequences of possibly being put to sleep, finding a new home, etc?
I've been told this and I agree 100% & I'll repeat it ~ "Show me a dog that won't bite, and I bet I can make it bite". All dogs bite, some may have to be pushed a hell of a lot farther, but sooner or later they will defend themself, and bite. What else would/can they do? Call 911?
User avatar
Jenn
undecided
 
Posts: 11382
Location: TX

Postby mnp13 » June 15th, 2007, 11:52 am

On June 15 2007, 10:59, randi81 wrote:But you know he is so freakin whacked that he'd probably be like a kid in a candy store.

If he pulls that crap with Jue or Nisha, he'll be a kid in a hospital bed. But I'm sure if he signs a waiver that will be ok! lol

Jenn - excellent post.
Michelle

Inside me is a thin woman trying to get out. I usually shut the bitch up with a martini.
User avatar
mnp13
Evil Overlord
 
Posts: 17234
Location: Rochester, NY

Postby amazincc » June 15th, 2007, 4:45 pm

I'm glad you and Saydee are both okay... I agree w/every-ones statements. Euthanasia never crossed my mind either when my dog got provoked enough to bite! He was still a puppy (around 10 months old) and I'm sure I somehow re-enforced that behavior, and it took us to where we are today.
Mick was also fine w/the person he bit after-wards, but he started acting aggressively towards anyone he didn't know... but Saydee sounds a lot more "put together" than he was - I am sure you are handling it the right way. :wink:

Brothers can be such... pains... :twisted:
User avatar
amazincc
Jessica & Mick
 
Posts: 9814
Location: Holding them both in my heart.


Return to Training & Behavior

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users

cron