no prong for 3 weeks!

[HappyPuppy]

This is nearing the 3rd full week we have NOT used the prong collar on Ruby - just flat collar. I'd been wanting to wean away and know we can wean her to the flat since she pulls but not like a freight train - most of you would probably laugh at how non-drivey she is in general/on leash but 47 lbs of determination on the leash can be tiring at times. We walk 30 mins each morning and the first half is usually free walking while she gets over the initial excitement (should I start with heeling instead?) - and the 2nd half is more about heeling unless she starts out pulling a lot early on. She pulls just enough almost to not get a correction (on free walk) - we've been using "no pull" and a leash pop but it's not super effective. On heeling, I'm struggling with proper corrections on the flat collar and have been ending up (wrongly) doing 2 pops as my hand slips on the leash the first time then I get a better grip for a better pop - this is not intentional but sort of a reflex - so the second pop is way too late. She will slow on a verbal heel command most times for about 4 or 5 steps then creeps out ahead again like she has only a 3 second attention span. We are seeing results tho in that a verbal will get some response but then it's back to pulling. I hate to "hold" her in place with leash taut but have been pinching the back of my left pant leg with leash hand so she'll sort of correct herself if she gets ahead of my stride. But that's cheating not teaching. So, this is getting old but I admit our only real leash and heel practice is weekday mornings for 30 mins. I'm about to go back to the prong but feel we have definitely made progress. Free walk tho, it's like we're not there - she weaves and bobs and sniffs and tries to go out in the street (on leash) and runs into cars and mailbox posts while sniffing before she looks up. We have 'watch' down pat but I have not abused it beyond testing her on it but it mostly worked today while we passed the caged bunnies that she stalks every morning. So, I'm frustrated that she continues to pull on both free walk and heeling - did intermittently do the turn around (on the prong) abruptly when she gets to the end of the leash and then she'll be careful and good for that session only. Also, the flat collar had slipped down this morning (maybe every morning) down low on her neck - I never bothered about it before because the prong went on top - I've been leery to over tighten the flat collar but I'm thinking it needs stay higher closer to the ears. Any direction on refining this (in addition to more training time)?

[mnp13]

15 minutes of working on heel? Ouch!

Define "heel"

[HappyPuppy]

Well, we're still developing our heel. It may not be exactly 50-50 but when I say 'heel,' I keep her on the left and mostly in heel position (mostly forging tho) and correct her for pulling. I try not to let her weave out on to the grass or at a tree (darn boy dogs!) to sniff and work on staying at least by me on the heel side. We stop at most curbs and she has the auto sit down pretty well. So pleased without the prong but still some steady pulling. I verbally say heel before I correct her with my newly-inept double pop - maybe I should wrap the leash around my fingers or hand so it doesn't slip. I basically try to break up the walk in to fun time and practice time but I am sure it ends up being more free walk - I think that bugs me the most: her pulling and tracking left and right like a sniffer dog at the end of the leash. So I'm not sure which is more important to focus on - a good heel or a nice walk....

[mnp13]

there is your first problem. You can't define heel, so how can you possilby teach your dog what heel is?

Are you trying to train heel as in "I want to go to an obedience trial and earn a title" or do you just want your dog to stop dislocating your shoulder on every walk?

[HappyPuppy]

Good point. I don't have high hopes for this dog re any precision training because I (myself) am STILL learning the basics and have not had a dog before. I get all inspired by people on this board that are doing great things with their dogs but I (obviously) don't have the skills (yet!) to do much. I mainly would like to keep my shoulder and present a nice and controlled image in public and get some response from my dog (when asked). I hesitated posting knowing I would sound as neophytic as I do, but it's hard to see what everyone is doing and not want to expect more out of Ruby - and I understand that mostly comes from what I put into her. And I guess I was expecting people to tell me that I am expecting too much from just our morning sessions. I am making too many small corrections, I think, and not the right kind and probably with poor timing. I think we're close and she is not a total freight train but it's just not fun getting dragged around at will.

[randi81]

I have the same exact problem with Saydee. She walks LOVELY on a prong collar, but on a flat collar... let's just say I don't need to go to the gym for my arms the next 2 days.

I have found that just stopping when she reaches the end of the leash (on a flat collar) is pretty effective. If she chokes herself, she chokes herself. If when I stop, she doesn't immediately look back at me, I start taking a few steps back, and she follows. Then I go forward again. She is VERY SLOWLY starting to realize that choking herself at the end of the leash does not make me accelerate.

We're in OB class twice a week, and Tammy the trainer insists that before you start working on *heel*, it's imperative that you have loose-leash (not to be confused with heel) walking mastered.

Last week in class Saydee was pulling so hard to get to the pomeranian, that she literally passed out. She choked herself, and fell over. She woke up almost immediately, but guess what? She isn't so interested in that pomeranian anymore.

[randi81]

I (myself) am STILL learning the basics and have not had a dog before. I get all inspired by people on this board that are doing great things with their dogs but I (obviously) don't have the skills (yet!) to do much.

Don't worry! You're not the only one! Saydee is my first dog that drags me down the sidewalk on leash. Are you and Ruby in any obedience classes? They really help! Persistence pays off.. just don't get discouraged!

[Romanwild]

I verbally say heel before I correct her with my newly-inept double pop

I can say that you might want to stop doing this because your dog might start thinking "heel" means he's going to get punished.

I've been working on heel myself. I know I've put in more then 15 minutes before but I made it fun for both of us and they tend to not burn out as quick that way. Meaning if you're using positive reinforcement to teach the behavior as opposed to compulsion (correcting them when they don't do what you want).

Keep asking ques tons and you'll learn a lot and increase your confidence. Keep up the good work and have fun.

[katiek0417]

I tend to limit all my obedience sessions (using both positive reinf and positive punishment) to about 7 minutes. After that, I find my dogs don't pay attention as well, they start lagging a bit....I keep those 7 minutes as fun as I possibly can, and reward the proper behavior right after the correction...

Once you define the heel that you want, stick with working on that...but keep it short...and make sure you balance corrections with pos. reinforcement...

[mnp13]

From reading your posts, I don't really think she has any idea what you are asking her to do. You spend 15 minutes letting her drag you around and then all of a sudden the next 15 is you yanking on her neck and telling her to do a command that she doesn't understand.

You need to teach first, correct later.

Now, I do believe in my "manners on leash" method of teaching manners not heeling. Yes, that is teaching using compulsion, but it's not a command so much as respect for you as a handler. It's a fine line, but it's different to me.

If you just want her to stop hauling you around, the "turn and pop" or the "be a tree and let the dog choke himself" methods work very well. The dog will be self-correcting... you are just going about your business in a normal fashion.

You need to work on "handler awareness" with her.

Oh, and everyone starts somewhere, no need to be embarassed. Every person here had a dog haul them around at some point in their lives.

[mnp13]

I have the same exact problem with Saydee. She walks LOVELY on a prong collar, but on a flat collar... let's just say I don't need to go to the gym for my arms the next 2 days.

Ruby is the same way and has been for a while. It's called being "collar smart" and is a royal PITA. It comes from teaching a behavior with the collar instead of by teaching. Once they are collar smart it's a long process to get them collar un-smart.

I've given up on a prong with Riggs (it's not worth the hassle or headache), but when I want perfect manners from Ruby I put her prong on and she is an angel.

[Romanwild]

Not all of my sessions are 15 minutes. Some are less then five minutes! It depends on how they are responding that day. There are days they just don't have the tolerance. Other days I'll give in before they do.

[randi81]

I have the same exact problem with Saydee. She walks LOVELY on a prong collar, but on a flat collar... let's just say I don't need to go to the gym for my arms the next 2 days.

Ruby is the same way and has been for a while. It's called being "collar smart" and is a royal PITA. It comes from teaching a behavior with the collar instead of by teaching. Once they are collar smart it's a long process to get them collar un-smart.

Yeah, so I've noticed! The trainer pretty much told me the same thing. She doesn't allow prongs, chokers, halters or harnesses in class. She did however ask me to stop by one day when I'm walking Saydee on her prong so she could see the difference.. because she sincerely doesn't believe me when I say she's an angel with that prong on! But lately I haven't been using it... I've just been using a flat collar, and doing the *I am a tree* method, and things are okay. My walks just take twice as long now.

[HappyPuppy]

Well, I've still been fighting a steady pull on the leash when we walk and Friday I put the prong on out of slight frustration but mainly for comparison after 4+ weeks of daily walks without the prong and I COULD HAVE WALKED HERE WITH MY PINKIE FINGER (not the one I got stuck in the jolly ball). Waaah. It's like she didn't evey try to pull and I'm didn't get that she was being 'collar smart' but she was a total dream to walk! And she has even pulled on the prong some so she can pull when she's into it.... I guess I'm just frustrated at the night and day difference (didn't notice that before so much tho she did pull on both collars) since we've been working partial heels and loose walks on our 30 morning walks/sessions (for a year in general but w/ no prong for a month). I am resisting going back to the prong because Ruby is basically managable for my size as she but I do want more control for me and more appearance of control for observers. And sometimes I just want to take a walk and look at the flowers and not be dragged left and right by a super sniffer dog (I think she'd be great at tracking if we ever got into that - she really amazes me with her nose).

[Wyldmoonwoman]

Prong collars work because the dog gets a noticable correction for pulling..why don't you teach proper walk manners with the prong, let the collar be the bad guy and give lots of verbal praise for loose leash walking and try the flat collar again in a couple weeks...it sounds like you dog DID learn something about leash manners on the flat collar but might have needed the correction of a prong collar for stepping out of line..good luck

[lilabet]

To me, the prong collar is just a tool. It should be used, if needed, to get behaviors you want so that you can reward them. For instance, if your dog knows what heel means, but won't, due to being distracted, you could about turn,dog gets a correction and comes up beside you, you then reward with praise and/or a treat. Two important things to remember: 1. The dog needs to learn (know) the behavior before you can give a correction. If you correct the dog before they have really learned the behavior, all you will do is confuse and demotivate your dog. 2. A new behavior should be heavily rewarded (more than the dog gets self rewarded by the environment). Behaviors that the dog finds rewarding increase, while behaviors that are unrewarding decrease.

[katiek0417]

I've always been one to say that you should only use a prong once the dog knows what a behavior is. So, teach the dog to sit using treats, then once it understands, use the prong to correct if the dog doesn't sit when you tell him to.

However, I have recently started to use the prong to train commands. Kaiden is my 9-month old malinois. He is 60 lbs (already), and taller than any dog we have in the house (when he stands up, he is eye to eye with me). I was having a very hard time teaching him to heel due to his size (compared to my size and the length of my arms)...not to mention he's got some strength in that body of his. However, I am also aware that if I give this dog a "pop" correction, I will probably shut him down (he's very sensitive, if I yell at another dog, and he thinks I'm yelling at him, he gets his feelings hurt).

So, rather than walking with him and turning around swiftly if he gets out of position or giving a "pop" when he's out of position, I use my food to show him where he should be, as well as little tugs on the leash (which, then, of course, tugs the prong collar) when he gets out of position (with a "uh-uh"). What I have found is that if there is a time when we are walking and I don't have food (from the car to the training field, or, for example, yesterday I found myself walking him without a reward) is that if I do the smaller tugs on the leash, and the "uh-uh" when he gets out of position, he'll fall back into position. At that time, i can verbally praise him or pat him on the head....

I've never used a prong to teach before....I don't know if I'll ever use it again (I like using all positive to teach)...but I will say that it is working for Kaiden...and he's still happy when he we're doing obedience...