Update on Susie and Pups

[savagem]

I have spoken to both Charles & Michelle as to your request, it is their decision that the ban remain in place.

Well, thanks for trying...

[Maryellen]

if you go online to Friends of Animals, they have spay/neuter certificates where you pay for the certificate they send it to you within a week, and the spays are usually $55 for females.. i would seriously suggest spaying Susie BEFORE she goes to a home. that is what a reputable rescue does

[savagem]

Maryellen,

Once again, it is NOT a question of cost. I just shelled out nearly $1,000 for the nueters of the boys. I'm not gonna let another $150-$200 influence me. My concerns are wholly with Sadie's health and welfare, which I've explained in detail in previous posts. And we are talking about Sadie the puppy here, not Susie. Mama Susie was spayed the minute she weaned her pups.

[Maryellen]

oh crap.. i got them confused.. ok, what is wrong with Sadie that she cant be spayed yet? i totally missed that thread

[savagem]

It's in this thread. Just go back to page 1 and take a look. She is simply too young, in my opinion.

[msvette2u]

Maryellen,

Sadie will be adopted out with a spay contract. I believe that is preferable to keeping her until she is 6 months old--which is when I personally believe a dog is old enough for a spay. She needs to go to her new family and bond with them now. There she will have the attention of two older children and a mom and dad who have waited until their children are old enough to appreciate a dog. Here she would have to share the attention with my own 4 dogs, Susie, and my two kids. How does that make sense? It is not an issue of cost, it is an issue of putting a puppy through an invasive procedure before her immune system is fully developed and at a critical point in her emotional development. A neuter doesn't involve opening the abdominal cavity--a spay does. I don't believe in putting a baby through the trauma and pain of such a major procedure. Not to mention the load on her immune system. Mama Susie is already spayed. I had it done the moment her pups were weaned. She is still seeking her perfect home.

Sounds responsible to me!

[savagem]

Maryellen,

Sadie will be adopted out with a spay contract. I believe that is preferable to keeping her until she is 6 months old--which is when I personally believe a dog is old enough for a spay. She needs to go to her new family and bond with them now. There she will have the attention of two older children and a mom and dad who have waited until their children are old enough to appreciate a dog. Here she would have to share the attention with my own 4 dogs, Susie, and my two kids. How does that make sense? It is not an issue of cost, it is an issue of putting a puppy through an invasive procedure before her immune system is fully developed and at a critical point in her emotional development. A neuter doesn't involve opening the abdominal cavity--a spay does. I don't believe in putting a baby through the trauma and pain of such a major procedure. Not to mention the load on her immune system. Mama Susie is already spayed. I had it done the moment her pups were weaned. She is still seeking her perfect home.

Sounds responsible to me!

Thank you!

[Maryellen]

i have had over 20 puppies pediatric spayed/neutered at 8 weeks old and 3 months old, none of them suffered any ill effects. you believe in regular speutering at 6 months, which is fine. however, if she goes into heat in her new home and winds up pregnant where will that leave her?

[msvette2u]

Actually she believes in early neutering but not spaying.

[savagem]

Yep, yep. There is a huge difference between a spay and a neuter. Neuter is just a snip and a stitch or two. Spay involves opening up the abdominal cavity. More pain and more of a tax to the immune system of the pup. I just can't put a baby through such a traumatic experience when she could just as easily wait a couple of months and have it done once her immune system is more mature and she is settled into a loving new home. Chances of her going into heat before the age of 5 or 6 months are VERY slim.

[msvette2u]

I agree - we had our girls' spays when their baby teeth came out. I think it is better to do it then too. Since they are all shelter dogs we can only figure (guess!) they were 5-6 mos. at that age.

[savagem]

Actually she believes in early neutering but not spaying.

In a perfect world, I'd like to see all dogs speutered no earlier than 6 months. But it's not a perfect world, as we all know. I think I'm very fortunate that this particular litter had 7 boys and only one girl. I don't like sending this puppy out into the world unspayed. But I like the thought of putting her through the surgery at such an early age even less. So for me it's the lesser of two evils.

[Maryellen]

when puppies are younger then 4 months, spaying has no effect on their recovery. i have had a bunch of female pups here, all were spayed from 8 weeks to 3 months old, when i picked them up after surgery they acted like there was nothing wrong, they were running around like loons.. the older they get, the more tramatic it is. my gsd was spayed at 6 months, and she took 2 days to recover.. its worse when they get older

[SisMorphine]

I recently turned down adopting a pup because they were doing pediatric speuters and wouldn't release them without. This was a really good article that someone else (who made the same decision I did) posted in my Greyhound forum regarding this issue. It's an interesting read.

http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html

[Maryellen]

3/4 of vets are against pediatric speutering because they know nothing about it.. if there was a problem, i doubt every reputable rescue would be doing pediatric speuters..

[savagem]

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one. I will take every precaution to ensure that the family who adopts Sadie follows through on getting her spayed. I will include a clause in the adoption contract that specifies she must have the surgery by 5 months old. I will offer them a 50 dollar refund when they provide proof of spay. If they do not provide the proof by the date specified I will contact them until they follow through. I will not adopt to them in the first place if I get the slightest hint from them that they might NOT follow through with the spay. But I won't submit this puppy to the surgery right now. I feel very strongly about this. If you feel the need to label me disreputable because of this, so be it. I feel that the way that I intend to handle this is every bit as responsible as getting her spayed at 12 weeks of age. And I feel that I am doing what is best for this puppy. Obviously you disagree, and that's your right.

[msvette2u]

3/4 of vets are against pediatric speutering because they know nothing about it.. if there was a problem, i doubt every reputable rescue would be doing pediatric speuters..

It's a good practice for bulk adoptions like from a shelter, but in a nicer world, such as Melanie has provided for these puppies, it's better to be able to wait if possible, longer. The studies Sis posted are very interesting to say the least. Had we had this information we'd have waited until our Yaeger was older, I'm sure.

[savagem]

3/4 of vets are against pediatric speutering because they know nothing about it.. if there was a problem, i doubt every reputable rescue would be doing pediatric speuters..

One of the major reasons I decided to handle this litter on my own instead of continuing to foster through SPBR was that Eric insisted upon speutering at 8 weeks--before the pups had even had 3 vaccinations. And that was just after he'd had a litter come down with Parvo after being speutered at 10 weeks without proper vaccinations. So there are disreputable rescues doing pediatric speutering as well. And the fact that it is so difficult to find a vet to do the speuters is very telling. The only reason my clinic would do the boys was as a favor to me. They don't normally do speuters before 4 months of age. And they wouldn't even CONSIDER the spay. Rescues do pediatric speuters for the same reason Eric does--it allows them to get the pups adopted out quickly while they are still cute and desirable, thereby allowing the rescue to save on costs associated with keeping the pups longer.

[savagem]

I recently turned down adopting a pup because they were doing pediatric speuters and wouldn't release them without. This was a really good article that someone else (who made the same decision I did) posted in my Greyhound forum regarding this issue. It's an interesting read.

http://www.caninesports.com/SpayNeuter.html

That is a very interesting article. Really makes me wish I'd waited on the boys as well.

[savagem]

3/4 of vets are against pediatric speutering because they know nothing about it.. if there was a problem, i doubt every reputable rescue would be doing pediatric speuters..

It's a good practice for bulk adoptions like from a shelter, but in a nicer world, such as Melanie has provided for these puppies, it's better to be able to wait if possible, longer. The studies Sis posted are very interesting to say the least. Had we had this information we'd have waited until our Yaeger was older, I'm sure.

It is an interesting article. This is a very difficult issue to handle, and I don't think there are any easy answers. A rescue wants to get pups adopted out as quickly as possible, both to keep costs down and to get them into homes at the optimal point in their development. And let's be honest--to get them into homes before they hit that gangly, awkward puppy stage. Yet there is the need to be responsible in assuring that a rescue is not adding to the pet overpopulation problem as well. I honestly don't think that spay/neuter contracts are a viable solution in the long run. I believe that in my situation--where I have the luxury of picking and choosing the perfect home for Sadie and following through with the family--it will work. And has worked for me twice before. But most shelters and many rescues don't have that luxury. So what's the solution? I honestly don't know. I only know what the solution is for this particular puppy.